Explain Meth is it safe + dependable
03-01-2012, 09:52 PM
#21
On The Tree
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm actually in Mcleansville, but your just down the road! We should get up some time and shoot the ****.
It's very simple it's common sense.
There is no way in hell two itty bitty nozzles(in comparison to a 60lb, 83lb, 96lb, 120lb etc. injector) are spraying near enough methanol to bump the octane rating that high.
EVEN if 50% of your fueling came from Methanol it wouldn't take the octane much over 100.
114(octane of methanol)+93(octane of high test pump gas)/2=103.5octane
It's simple.
Julio (alkycontrol) said himself he targets 25% fueling from Methanol at WOT so if we calculate that 114x.25=28.5 93x.75=69.75 69.75+28.5=98.25octane
So there you have it.
SIMPLE mathematics prove's that right.
The main power in spraying methanol in small amounts like you do using a methanol injection system comes from IAT cooling. If you cool the IAT's off you can safely lean the fuel mixture out some, add boost, or a little of both. Depending on where you are with your timing when you add the methanol injection will determine if you can add anymore.
It's very simple it's common sense.
There is no way in hell two itty bitty nozzles(in comparison to a 60lb, 83lb, 96lb, 120lb etc. injector) are spraying near enough methanol to bump the octane rating that high.
EVEN if 50% of your fueling came from Methanol it wouldn't take the octane much over 100.
114(octane of methanol)+93(octane of high test pump gas)/2=103.5octane
It's simple.
Julio (alkycontrol) said himself he targets 25% fueling from Methanol at WOT so if we calculate that 114x.25=28.5 93x.75=69.75 69.75+28.5=98.25octane
So there you have it.
SIMPLE mathematics prove's that right.
The main power in spraying methanol in small amounts like you do using a methanol injection system comes from IAT cooling. If you cool the IAT's off you can safely lean the fuel mixture out some, add boost, or a little of both. Depending on where you are with your timing when you add the methanol injection will determine if you can add anymore.
It takes twice the amount of alcohol to produce the power of gasoline. So when you pull 25% gasoline.. your pumping in twice the volume of meth that you displaced. Actually more as the targets are now run richer.
Simple math. The M15 flows 15 GPH at 100 PSI. Two nozzles is 30 GPH at 100 PSI. The pump runs at lets say 140-25 psi boost= 115 PSI effective.
I'll finish the math this weekend unless someone wants to figure it out
My VE table on 96's is in the 50's.Got a big race tommorrow,
Pits out
03-02-2012, 02:47 AM
#23
It will not give the same octane as racing fuel.
Yes Methanol(M1) carries the same octane as 113-114 gas, but you would have to be using it as the primary fuel enrichment to see 114 octane.
If your using it with 93 and spraying the amount most people do, it might bump it to 97-98 octane.
When not spraying vast quantities of it, it's main benefit is intake air cooling which helps to stave off detonation also and will allow a slight amount more boost to be run.
Yes Methanol(M1) carries the same octane as 113-114 gas, but you would have to be using it as the primary fuel enrichment to see 114 octane.
If your using it with 93 and spraying the amount most people do, it might bump it to 97-98 octane.
When not spraying vast quantities of it, it's main benefit is intake air cooling which helps to stave off detonation also and will allow a slight amount more boost to be run.
03-02-2012, 07:54 AM
#25
For me, I'm going to use it to help boost the octane, which helps reduce the chance of detonation, and it also helps to cool the combustion chamber temps, which again, helps to reduce the chances of detonation.
You have to understand what the octane rating is really about. It's a measurement of how readily the fuel will burn. So the higher the octane rating, the less likely the fuel is to burn, think flashpoint, kinda sorta, but not exactly. So by definition alone, water has ALMOST an infinite octane rating since water doesn't burn. I say almost, because once you split both hydrogen atoms off the oxygen, it will burn, actually explode, think hydrogen bomb, but we'll leave the nuclear chemistry out of this for now.
So for me, I'm running pump gas 93, with 14-15psi of boost, on a nearly stock compression ratio, so I want to make sure I don't get knock, which has a tendency to do bad things to an engine.
I plan to lean out my afr to ~11.5-11.7:1 on pump gas, then progressively spray a meoh/water mixture starting at 2-3psi of boost. That should keep the motor happy for some time to come.
You have to understand what the octane rating is really about. It's a measurement of how readily the fuel will burn. So the higher the octane rating, the less likely the fuel is to burn, think flashpoint, kinda sorta, but not exactly. So by definition alone, water has ALMOST an infinite octane rating since water doesn't burn. I say almost, because once you split both hydrogen atoms off the oxygen, it will burn, actually explode, think hydrogen bomb, but we'll leave the nuclear chemistry out of this for now.
So for me, I'm running pump gas 93, with 14-15psi of boost, on a nearly stock compression ratio, so I want to make sure I don't get knock, which has a tendency to do bad things to an engine.
I plan to lean out my afr to ~11.5-11.7:1 on pump gas, then progressively spray a meoh/water mixture starting at 2-3psi of boost. That should keep the motor happy for some time to come.
03-02-2012, 10:54 PM
#26
So your saying with the volume difference between the two fuels your only effectively doubling the pressure output which will what? Fall off as the pressure gets higher and higher. Still no way that the average user(read the word average), not someone who is trying to be a hero and push the boundaries of science with pump fuel and 27psi and methanol and is utilizing over 50% of their fueling from the methanol they are secondarily injecting into the intake tract is going to see an octane rating that high.
It is well discussed throughout the racing world of what octane rating M1 methanol carries. Just because no where on VP's site does it state what that RON is doesn't mean the information isn't available.
I'm going racing on Sunday, does that count?
It is well discussed throughout the racing world of what octane rating M1 methanol carries. Just because no where on VP's site does it state what that RON is doesn't mean the information isn't available.
I'm going racing on Sunday, does that count?
03-03-2012, 08:22 AM
#27
so from a "safe" stand point on pump gas, is it better to have your car tuned to peak performance on it and just injecting a small amount of water as a cooling benefit for IAT's vs relying on meth? (this way if the pump fails the risk of engine failure is greatly reduced over a pump failure with a tune incorporating meth) and also having a longer lasting pump when used for h2o only as an additional side benefit?
hope you're ok with me asking this OP as i thought it might fit in well with the topic of "safe". i'll delete it and start a new thread if you'd like it removed.
hope you're ok with me asking this OP as i thought it might fit in well with the topic of "safe". i'll delete it and start a new thread if you'd like it removed.
03-03-2012, 09:38 AM
#28
The way I see that it should be used is meth injection is supposed to be good for IAT cooling and having the ability to add 1-3 more psi boost or a little bit of timing. People are always wanting to push and push and try and get away with **** and then when it blows up they wonder why it happened and/or blame it on something else.
The people that are slapping multiple gigantic almost fuel injector like methanol nozzles in their intact tract, and using 30-40% or more of it for their WOT fueling are just plain ignorant because they want to be a pump gas hero, all the while complain about fuel cost as they race a car that has close to a small house cost tied up in it.
If that pump decides to quit for whatever reason, (my meth pump stopped working 4 times while I owned my turbo car for a almost a year, luckily I had my tune pulling gobs of timing if the IAT's got over 120-130 and it saved my butt).
Methanol injection is a GREAT thing, do NOT get my posts misunderstood I think it's a very viable option for any and every A2A or non-intercooled supercharged or turbocharged motor.
If your going to inject that much meth, either run E85 or methanol itself.
Rant over.
The people that are slapping multiple gigantic almost fuel injector like methanol nozzles in their intact tract, and using 30-40% or more of it for their WOT fueling are just plain ignorant because they want to be a pump gas hero, all the while complain about fuel cost as they race a car that has close to a small house cost tied up in it.
If that pump decides to quit for whatever reason, (my meth pump stopped working 4 times while I owned my turbo car for a almost a year, luckily I had my tune pulling gobs of timing if the IAT's got over 120-130 and it saved my butt).
Methanol injection is a GREAT thing, do NOT get my posts misunderstood I think it's a very viable option for any and every A2A or non-intercooled supercharged or turbocharged motor.
If your going to inject that much meth, either run E85 or methanol itself.
Rant over.
Last edited by Fbodyjunkie06; 03-03-2012 at 09:44 AM.
03-03-2012, 11:13 AM
#29
there are those of us who do not have any e85 even remotely close...plus who likes switching fuels from race gas to pump gas everytime they want to go for a cruise and we all know there is the occasional person who wants to play around at a light. just saying i dont see the problem with making 900rwhp with meth.
03-03-2012, 12:46 PM
#30
Launching!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Tampa
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there are those of us who do not have any e85 even remotely close...plus who likes switching fuels from race gas to pump gas everytime they want to go for a cruise and we all know there is the occasional person who wants to play around at a light. just saying i dont see the problem with making 900rwhp with meth.
03-03-2012, 02:33 PM
#32
Just pulled a 402ci last summer that had 80k miles on it(6-7 years) while running a F1-D blower (17-19lbs) and a dual nozzle Alky control kit, probly an easy 150 track passes, always 93 octain. Needed rings and the rods were stretched. Broke everything on the car multiple times but never removed the heads.
Thats pretty reliable to me.
03-03-2012, 06:59 PM
#33
8 Second Club
iTrader: (18)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Posts: 2,609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How good does meth injection work-8.8@160 good on a 3600lb full weight, AC to ABS working car with a RPM 4L60E.
6 years of use for me. 5 on the 402 that ran 8.8.
As with everything-use common sense.
I log all my runs, I test and verify everythings working-all the time.
I use the Alky Control kit.
One thing people have to understand-you can blow anything up at anytime, it can be a stock bottom end or a forged motor. If you don't use common sense on how you approach things-anything can happen.
6 years of use for me. 5 on the 402 that ran 8.8.
As with everything-use common sense.
I log all my runs, I test and verify everythings working-all the time.
I use the Alky Control kit.
One thing people have to understand-you can blow anything up at anytime, it can be a stock bottom end or a forged motor. If you don't use common sense on how you approach things-anything can happen.
03-03-2012, 07:27 PM
#34
TECH Fanatic
Been running Meth on my 87Grandnational for 6yrs, and to be able to get 500-600hp out of a V6 stock crank, rods, pistons is amazing! I just installed Meth on my 1981 Turbo T/A, with a GT45 turbo, LQ4. Meth is the best
and I dont have to by the high race gas.
and I dont have to by the high race gas. 
MTBE is a beotch.
03-04-2012, 02:17 AM
#36
2001 SS M-6
Built Merkel Racing 346 LS6 9.5 to one compression blower motor
My own blower cam and head specs
740/670 RWHP/TQ D1-sc @ 15.1 psi
lsx solutions meth system , twin 7 gph snow nozzles,
Vette doctors SD tune with IAT safty
17.5 degs of timming, and safty is set at 119 degs to pull all timming out in case meth system fails
93 shell pump gas about 12.0 A/F + meth 11.5 A/F (final A/F)
This Power was at 6,300-6,500 with a stock size 75mm acufabe throttle body, stock LS6 intake and stock like idel custom cam, stock ported heads, small 2.00 1.57 ferria valves
The biggest "choke" is the small F-body old school 1.75 FLP headers, with bottle neck 2.5 Y pipe , (hour glass looking) Y into "Stock" SLP single 3" exhaust into the stock slp SS duel-duel exhaust muffler
with a true duel exhaust , car woud see another 60+ HP and with a better flowing intake another 20HP and thicker deck AFR heads and 3 more PSI another 80 HP , so there would be another 900 horse Pump gas Meth injected killer, but im happy with 740 at the wheels , my camaro is only a street car and its tuned "Safe" and the motor runs smooth and the exhaust sounds perfect.
So im a believer in meth injection no matter what the octang rating is, it works!
**the motor dont know the difference, water injection cools the intake charge and combustion fighting off detination acting like a octang booster, Meth is better its a controled fuel , One thing about H2O over meth is it will vaporize into a gas and expand, during combustion this expansion will raise cyclinder pressure and can make more power.
But i only run straight meth, VP M-5 will boost power over M1, must have a little nitro mixed in it.
Adding 30% water to meth will keep it from burning with a open flame, in case someone is concerned of a fire, especial during a accident, Again i still run straight Meth i dont believe in injecting water into a motor
Built Merkel Racing 346 LS6 9.5 to one compression blower motor
My own blower cam and head specs
740/670 RWHP/TQ D1-sc @ 15.1 psi
lsx solutions meth system , twin 7 gph snow nozzles,
Vette doctors SD tune with IAT safty
17.5 degs of timming, and safty is set at 119 degs to pull all timming out in case meth system fails
93 shell pump gas about 12.0 A/F + meth 11.5 A/F (final A/F)
This Power was at 6,300-6,500 with a stock size 75mm acufabe throttle body, stock LS6 intake and stock like idel custom cam, stock ported heads, small 2.00 1.57 ferria valves
The biggest "choke" is the small F-body old school 1.75 FLP headers, with bottle neck 2.5 Y pipe , (hour glass looking) Y into "Stock" SLP single 3" exhaust into the stock slp SS duel-duel exhaust muffler
with a true duel exhaust , car woud see another 60+ HP and with a better flowing intake another 20HP and thicker deck AFR heads and 3 more PSI another 80 HP , so there would be another 900 horse Pump gas Meth injected killer, but im happy with 740 at the wheels , my camaro is only a street car and its tuned "Safe" and the motor runs smooth and the exhaust sounds perfect.
So im a believer in meth injection no matter what the octang rating is, it works!
**the motor dont know the difference, water injection cools the intake charge and combustion fighting off detination acting like a octang booster, Meth is better its a controled fuel , One thing about H2O over meth is it will vaporize into a gas and expand, during combustion this expansion will raise cyclinder pressure and can make more power.
But i only run straight meth, VP M-5 will boost power over M1, must have a little nitro mixed in it.
Adding 30% water to meth will keep it from burning with a open flame, in case someone is concerned of a fire, especial during a accident, Again i still run straight Meth i dont believe in injecting water into a motor
Last edited by LS2Ttype; 03-04-2012 at 02:24 AM.
03-04-2012, 07:45 AM
#37
I used meth and water mix 50/50, One thing about it dont use it as a bandaid for a subprime fuel system. I had dual walbors,-6 -8 lines aswell. I can say in the texas heat and wot the car would pull hard through all six gears. On a cold night its even better. On a 95+ degree day wot id see 60 degree intake temps and no sighn of knock 18* timing Max increase of iat temps. Off the juice its a max of 15* timing. Another thing id stress is dont tune the car to be dependent on it. On the dyno for na cars i seen a bump of 35 hp 45tq , but thats 100% meth. The hp increase is from timing and cooler intake temps. Im not sure what octain points it will give but this is what Ive seen and done. I think running meth on the streets (lol) pun, gives more flexablity over race gas, and e 85, in some areas. E85 winter blend is trash, and in the summer it may vapor lock in the raails and injectors. I seen great things on corn juice but its not the same countrywide.
03-04-2012, 12:53 PM
#38
Staging Lane
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: F22 Secret Lair (aka) The "Austin Millbarge"
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just wanted to expand further that if you're looking to boost octane you can also inject Toulene or Xylene which has R+M/2 ratings of 114 and 117 respectively. You'd have to add about 5oz of Marvels Mystery Oil per gal to either, but they work pretty decent. We used to home-brew race gas out of this stuff, adding roughly 5 gallons to a 16 gallon tank along with 2 stroke motor oil. Boosted octane up to around 101.
If you're looking to control IAT temps simple blue windshield washer fluid is pretty good to use by itself.
If you're looking to control IAT temps simple blue windshield washer fluid is pretty good to use by itself.
03-05-2012, 12:26 AM
#39
2001 SS M-6
Built Merkel Racing 346 LS6 9.5 to one compression blower motor
My own blower cam and head specs
740/670 RWHP/TQ D1-sc @ 15.1 psi
lsx solutions meth system , twin 7 gph snow nozzles,
Vette doctors SD tune with IAT safty
17.5 degs of timming, and safty is set at 119 degs to pull all timming out in case meth system fails
93 shell pump gas about 12.0 A/F + meth 11.5 A/F (final A/F)
This Power was at 6,300-6,500 with a stock size 75mm acufabe throttle body, stock LS6 intake and stock like idel custom cam, stock ported heads, small 2.00 1.57 ferria valves
The biggest "choke" is the small F-body old school 1.75 FLP headers, with bottle neck 2.5 Y pipe , (hour glass looking) Y into "Stock" SLP single 3" exhaust into the stock slp SS duel-duel exhaust muffler
with a true duel exhaust , car woud see another 60+ HP and with a better flowing intake another 20HP and thicker deck AFR heads and 3 more PSI another 80 HP , so there would be another 900 horse Pump gas Meth injected killer, but im happy with 740 at the wheels , my camaro is only a street car and its tuned "Safe" and the motor runs smooth and the exhaust sounds perfect.
So im a believer in meth injection no matter what the octang rating is, it works!
**the motor dont know the difference, water injection cools the intake charge and combustion fighting off detination acting like a octang booster, Meth is better its a controled fuel , One thing about H2O over meth is it will vaporize into a gas and expand, during combustion this expansion will raise cyclinder pressure and can make more power.
But i only run straight meth, VP M-5 will boost power over M1, must have a little nitro mixed in it.
Adding 30% water to meth will keep it from burning with a open flame, in case someone is concerned of a fire, especial during a accident, Again i still run straight Meth i dont believe in injecting water into a motor
Built Merkel Racing 346 LS6 9.5 to one compression blower motor
My own blower cam and head specs
740/670 RWHP/TQ D1-sc @ 15.1 psi
lsx solutions meth system , twin 7 gph snow nozzles,
Vette doctors SD tune with IAT safty
17.5 degs of timming, and safty is set at 119 degs to pull all timming out in case meth system fails
93 shell pump gas about 12.0 A/F + meth 11.5 A/F (final A/F)
This Power was at 6,300-6,500 with a stock size 75mm acufabe throttle body, stock LS6 intake and stock like idel custom cam, stock ported heads, small 2.00 1.57 ferria valves
The biggest "choke" is the small F-body old school 1.75 FLP headers, with bottle neck 2.5 Y pipe , (hour glass looking) Y into "Stock" SLP single 3" exhaust into the stock slp SS duel-duel exhaust muffler
with a true duel exhaust , car woud see another 60+ HP and with a better flowing intake another 20HP and thicker deck AFR heads and 3 more PSI another 80 HP , so there would be another 900 horse Pump gas Meth injected killer, but im happy with 740 at the wheels , my camaro is only a street car and its tuned "Safe" and the motor runs smooth and the exhaust sounds perfect.
So im a believer in meth injection no matter what the octang rating is, it works!
**the motor dont know the difference, water injection cools the intake charge and combustion fighting off detination acting like a octang booster, Meth is better its a controled fuel , One thing about H2O over meth is it will vaporize into a gas and expand, during combustion this expansion will raise cyclinder pressure and can make more power.
But i only run straight meth, VP M-5 will boost power over M1, must have a little nitro mixed in it.
Adding 30% water to meth will keep it from burning with a open flame, in case someone is concerned of a fire, especial during a accident, Again i still run straight Meth i dont believe in injecting water into a motor
M1 is also oxygenated, but M5 is just a whole nother world of nasty ****. Makes damn good power though.
Stevie Fast uses M3 IIRC.
03-05-2012, 09:23 AM
#40
On The Tree
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you dont push the boundaries you never know how far they can be moved too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6Yve...1&feature=plcp
This is fresh off the grill from this weekend. V8 motor 348 ci, pushrod, nothing special. Car weighs 3450 with me in it. Took 5th with a 9.12 average out of 103 cars? .2 of the fastest in the class which was an 8.93. Fuel is not limited in this class. The top 3 where running on C16. Tires is where its at
The fastest car ran an 8.71 and was an 03 Cobra twin 62's on pump gas and "straight methanol injection" first round.
85 degree day, 25 MPH headwind, sand all over track.. the worse of the worse for track conditions.
Need to step it up for the NMCA race here in 2 weeks with my LS brothers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6Yve...1&feature=plcp
This is fresh off the grill from this weekend. V8 motor 348 ci, pushrod, nothing special. Car weighs 3450 with me in it. Took 5th with a 9.12 average out of 103 cars? .2 of the fastest in the class which was an 8.93. Fuel is not limited in this class. The top 3 where running on C16. Tires is where its at
The fastest car ran an 8.71 and was an 03 Cobra twin 62's on pump gas and "straight methanol injection" first round.
85 degree day, 25 MPH headwind, sand all over track.. the worse of the worse for track conditions.
Need to step it up for the NMCA race here in 2 weeks with my LS brothers