Meth/E users, how much time?
05-19-2013, 09:17 AM
#21
I look at meoh/water injection as serving two purposes, 1, it makes things safer and live longer by cooling things down. 2, it adds power, if tuned properly, to take advantage of the extra cooling effect.
I'm far from an expert on meoh/water injection, but I love the tech aspects of it, and do enjoy reading the tech articles and testing. I miss my days of working at Sunoco race fuels and all the fun things they do, but that's for another story.
I'm seriously considering doing a port injection into my FAST manifold using the nitrous ports. I think that would be pimp.
I'm far from an expert on meoh/water injection, but I love the tech aspects of it, and do enjoy reading the tech articles and testing. I miss my days of working at Sunoco race fuels and all the fun things they do, but that's for another story.
I'm seriously considering doing a port injection into my FAST manifold using the nitrous ports. I think that would be pimp.
05-19-2013, 09:55 AM
#22
basically the article was saying - as to why spraying into the intake is less efficient that spraying into the port
1. vaporised methanol takes up more volume than liquid methanol, displacing more air
2. cooling the intake is energy that could have been used to cool the air charge
3. spraying into the intake causes uneven distribution to the cylinders
4. most of the real cooling happens in the cylinder, not the intake.
i think we are close to being able to say "myth busted"
I also find it interesting that they were talking about direct injection as far back as 1984
1. vaporised methanol takes up more volume than liquid methanol, displacing more air
2. cooling the intake is energy that could have been used to cool the air charge
3. spraying into the intake causes uneven distribution to the cylinders
4. most of the real cooling happens in the cylinder, not the intake.
i think we are close to being able to say "myth busted"
I also find it interesting that they were talking about direct injection as far back as 1984
05-19-2013, 10:32 AM
#23
I read the 'conclusions' section of the paper, and the points you make are valid, but are directed at the loss of VE, not the increase in detonation resistance.
As hot rodders we are more interested in the detonation suppression effects than the slight loss of VE, after all, we can just up the boost to compensate for a slight loss of VE.
Also point 3, distribution w/ meth injected up stream of TB can be no worse that what the manifold was doing without the meth.
As hot rodders we are more interested in the detonation suppression effects than the slight loss of VE, after all, we can just up the boost to compensate for a slight loss of VE.
Also point 3, distribution w/ meth injected up stream of TB can be no worse that what the manifold was doing without the meth.
05-19-2013, 11:10 AM
#24
I read the 'conclusions' section of the paper, and the points you make are valid, but are directed at the loss of VE, not the increase in detonation resistance.
As hot rodders we are more interested in the detonation suppression effects than the slight loss of VE, after all, we can just up the boost to compensate for a slight loss of VE.
Also point 3, distribution w/ meth injected up stream of TB can be no worse that what the manifold was doing without the meth.
As hot rodders we are more interested in the detonation suppression effects than the slight loss of VE, after all, we can just up the boost to compensate for a slight loss of VE.
Also point 3, distribution w/ meth injected up stream of TB can be no worse that what the manifold was doing without the meth.
distribution can be way worse if injected up stream of tb. the article even says that.
also, if im reading it correctly, the OPs primary fuel will be eth or meth and he wants to know if there is a benefit to adding an extra injector in the intake piping- in light of that, i have to disagree that having an injector in the intake will make it more detonation resistant.
if the op is using gas and wondering if he should add meth, then ill agree with you that some meth, anywhere in the system is better than no meth at all.
now, something that im now thinking about, is, what if one could spray pure meth at the compressor. not enough to have any changes to af ratio, or even make it into the intake, but enough to be fully vaporised by cooling the compressor. i wonder what that would do for VE
05-20-2013, 08:04 AM
#26
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I have done alot of reading on the delta between IAT at TB and the IAT at the intake valve (on a methanol FI EFI engine, injectors at the port). Pending on PSI, it is not abnormal to see a 200* F drop on 20psi (some claim over a 270* drop at 40psi of boost).
On a alky injection nozzel setup in the up pipe on a gas engine, 60 to 100* F drop (temp between turbo outlet & sensor in the intake) is not abnormal if you spray with multiple larger nozzels in the up pipe.
On a alky injection nozzel setup in the up pipe on a gas engine, 60 to 100* F drop (temp between turbo outlet & sensor in the intake) is not abnormal if you spray with multiple larger nozzels in the up pipe.
05-20-2013, 10:42 PM
#27
I have done alot of reading on the delta between IAT at TB and the IAT at the intake valve (on a methanol FI EFI engine, injectors at the port). Pending on PSI, it is not abnormal to see a 200* F drop on 20psi (some claim over a 270* drop at 40psi of boost).
On a alky injection nozzel setup in the up pipe on a gas engine, 60 to 100* F drop (temp between turbo outlet & sensor in the intake) is not abnormal if you spray with multiple larger nozzels in the up pipe.
On a alky injection nozzel setup in the up pipe on a gas engine, 60 to 100* F drop (temp between turbo outlet & sensor in the intake) is not abnormal if you spray with multiple larger nozzels in the up pipe.
Fastest radial tired door car on the face of planet earth in that video warming up. Please pay attention to the screen capture in front of you and watch around the 30 second mark of the video. You will see something that will grab your attention. Why would the fastest radial tire car on the planet inject methanol upstream of the compressor wheel and outlet of the compressor housing while running methanol as his primary means of fueling if there was no benefit to it?
05-21-2013, 01:57 AM
#28
9 Second Club
Don't most fast methanol cars inject at several locations ?
Red Victor here in the UK has them in the intake, boost plumbing, before the turbos. Something like 20-24 injectors in total. Although it will be close to 3kHP this time around.
Red Victor here in the UK has them in the intake, boost plumbing, before the turbos. Something like 20-24 injectors in total. Although it will be close to 3kHP this time around.
05-21-2013, 02:57 PM
#30
im usinmg a pd blower on my current build and plan on spraying liquid pre rotors on hobbs switch. in theory, should relieve alot of heat and compress the meth along with with air charge and pull some heat and drop the iats some. ive seen its a common minimum 50-60* drop and nets quite a strong increase in tq and hp in pd blower street cars, slobras, zl1s, gt500s. etc
05-21-2013, 08:39 PM
#33
some things on the surface seem to be logical but then testing concludes otherwise and mankind is the wiser for it.
just like it seems logical that methanol would pull more heat out of the air than water because when you get some of it on your skin, it feels colder than water, but with science we know better
05-22-2013, 05:15 PM
#34
If only he knew what we now know and what the EPA knew way back in 1984.
some things on the surface seem to be logical but then testing concludes otherwise and mankind is the wiser for it.
just like it seems logical that methanol would pull more heat out of the air than water because when you get some of it on your skin, it feels colder than water, but with science we know better
some things on the surface seem to be logical but then testing concludes otherwise and mankind is the wiser for it.
just like it seems logical that methanol would pull more heat out of the air than water because when you get some of it on your skin, it feels colder than water, but with science we know better
05-23-2013, 02:30 PM
#35
9 Second Club
If only he knew what we now know and what the EPA knew way back in 1984.
some things on the surface seem to be logical but then testing concludes otherwise and mankind is the wiser for it.
just like it seems logical that methanol would pull more heat out of the air than water because when you get some of it on your skin, it feels colder than water, but with science we know better
some things on the surface seem to be logical but then testing concludes otherwise and mankind is the wiser for it.
just like it seems logical that methanol would pull more heat out of the air than water because when you get some of it on your skin, it feels colder than water, but with science we know better
Methanol will pull more heat, BUT, it would require huge volumes of methanol to do so because it boils at a lower temperature. Which many people are happy to use plenty.
But water is the better coolant both as far as charge temps and chamber temps. Of course, adding water to a fire is always going to have a downside too
05-23-2013, 03:42 PM
#37
Not really....this one could go down Hombre's route lol
Methanol will pull more heat, BUT, it would require huge volumes of methanol to do so because it boils at a lower temperature. Which many people are happy to use plenty.
But water is the better coolant both as far as charge temps and chamber temps. Of course, adding water to a fire is always going to have a downside too
Methanol will pull more heat, BUT, it would require huge volumes of methanol to do so because it boils at a lower temperature. Which many people are happy to use plenty.
But water is the better coolant both as far as charge temps and chamber temps. Of course, adding water to a fire is always going to have a downside too
05-23-2013, 04:06 PM
#39
9 Second Club