pump + meth vs e85
#1
pump + meth vs e85
Ok so planning my build and wanted to know what would be the better route, FI too.
Which has a greater margin for tunning errors as it will be my first go at that?
Which has greater power potential?
Or is it worth it to run both? E85 and meth.
Also it'll be a2w if that matters
Which has a greater margin for tunning errors as it will be my first go at that?
Which has greater power potential?
Or is it worth it to run both? E85 and meth.
Also it'll be a2w if that matters
#2
If you type that in and "search" there are tons of recent topics on this. The consensus was if E85 is readily available then use it. A lot depends on your compression, intended use, etc...
Search, "pump & Meth or E85" and a ton of threads will come up and probably answer your question though.
Search, "pump & Meth or E85" and a ton of threads will come up and probably answer your question though.
#4
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If you want to deal with the downsides then run both. I know several friends that did that for awhile then went to just 91+meth because they made the same power without the downsides.
I made 1047rwhp on 91+meth on a really soft tune. I have no urge to use e85.
I made 1047rwhp on 91+meth on a really soft tune. I have no urge to use e85.
#5
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1.) If your relying on meth inj to control detonation and something happens to the alky kit/pump you'll blow the motor in a hurry.
2.) if your fuel pump drops and the meth keeps spraying... Also blows the motor.
3.)Depending on how much of your total WOT fuel your replacing with meth you also need to worry about even cylinder distribution. Another thing you don’t worry about with E85. There is a reason fuel injection systems don't use one huge injector pre throttlebody.
Friend of mine blew a pretty expensive motor pushing it on pump and alky inj. The fuel pump went out mid pass, ran just lean enough to detonate the crap out of the motor. It was a total loss, even took the block out.
If he had be running e85 and the fuel pump dropped off the motor would have just died.
Several things to consider.... I've ran both. Less chance of failure in an E85 system IMO.
Last edited by Forcefed86; 01-09-2014 at 12:41 PM.
#6
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Put the correct controls in and it can be safe either way. If someone didn't notice fuel pressure going down that much I don't know what to say besides they should have had a fuel pressure gauge. Same thing could happen on e85 if you are running a multiple pump setup. My fuel pressure is monitored and if it drops below where it should be a big red light comes on.
My meth is setup on different maps so if meth isn't spraying then car runs accordingly. Adjust timing and fuel based on meth on or off.
My meth is setup on different maps so if meth isn't spraying then car runs accordingly. Adjust timing and fuel based on meth on or off.
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#8
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That is one easy way to do it. You could even tie that into a LPE timing box or something to pull timing if one fails. Or tie it into the ecu to do the same if your ecu supports dual maps.
#9
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Put the correct controls in and it can be safe either way. If someone didn't notice fuel pressure going down that much I don't know what to say besides they should have had a fuel pressure gauge. Same thing could happen on e85 if you are running a multiple pump setup. My fuel pressure is monitored and if it drops below where it should be a big red light comes on.
Sure, fail-safes are great, but also add more parts that can fail. It’s common sense. The more variables you add to a system the more likely one will fail. Multiple pumps, alky kits, progressive controllers, pressure switches, etc… I ran ALKY INJ for many years in my turbo buick days, Pretty awesome stuff, just making the OP aware is has draw backs as well. IMO more than e85.
Say your half way into a ¼ mile pass. Your METH is spraying so your ECU is being told to run the meth tune. Then a fuel pump(s) drops out. The ECU still sees the METH is spraying so your still on the METH tune. What happens?
Also depends how much you rely on the meth. in your tune. Fuel/timing changes alone couldn't have saved my engine at the boost levels I ran. I would have needed something to add fuel and drop boost/timing at the same time. (more $ and added variables)
Again I’m not saying meth isn’t great, it is. Or that things will always go wrong. IMO, why risk i? I’ve got E85 a mile from my house and a mile from the race track. Cheap and easy. If I didn’t have E85 I’d be running meth inj, too.
All kinds of ways. Fuel press hobbs switch idea wouldn't work to well. FP varies too much with boost. Then you would have to stare at idiot lights while driving. I like buzzer alarms instead of lights. Some of the new WB02 setups have a switch that will activate if the AFR’s drop below a certain amount while in boost as well. All kinds of fail-safes, most of the kits I see on the street and at the track don’t use them though.
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I agree with what you are saying. If e85 is commonly available and it is a track car/etc then keep it as simple as possible. I put 10k+ miles on my car, take it on multi state trips/etc so e85 doesn't work well for me. I chose the pump+meth with as many fail safes as I could do with my current ecu. If I had something like a haltech/proefi/Aem you could have it kill the motor/etc if fp drops or whatever you want. A lot of the newer stand alones have a feature to try to save a motor if FP drops/etc by ramping up the injectors/etc. AEM does that for sure.
The biggest risk I have is probably running a dual fuel pump setup instead of a big single. If one dies then it will lean out. Car flashes all sorts of warnings. No need to star at gauges. HUD is programmed so if boost >2 and AFR >11.5 to freak out. I can program the dash/hud/speakers in the car to do whatever based on any PID/analog input. I still have to be smart enough to let off and hope that was quick enough.
As far as nothing can go wrong with just e85, uhh no. Making power and racing, something can always go wrong. Fuel filter can clog, pump may start dieing but not enough to kill car, injectors may clog up, etc.
The biggest risk I have is probably running a dual fuel pump setup instead of a big single. If one dies then it will lean out. Car flashes all sorts of warnings. No need to star at gauges. HUD is programmed so if boost >2 and AFR >11.5 to freak out. I can program the dash/hud/speakers in the car to do whatever based on any PID/analog input. I still have to be smart enough to let off and hope that was quick enough.
As far as nothing can go wrong with just e85, uhh no. Making power and racing, something can always go wrong. Fuel filter can clog, pump may start dieing but not enough to kill car, injectors may clog up, etc.
#13
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You didn't get that out of my post.....? Did you see me quote anyone in particular?
I'm planning to run full time E85 on my boost set up and this thread is exactly a subject I'm interested in. Some people say to run meth with it and some say its not needed.
.
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Meth failing and hurting can only happen if you are depending on the meth for octane/fuel. On a lower HP car you can easily tune off meth, then just run it for cooling/iat advantage and if it fails nothing bad happens, just means you are running without meth and may lose some power. Without knowing what the OP is going for he may not even need safety devices. My car doesn't go lean off meth, it runs fine without it, but it does pull 6-7 degrees of timing without it which kills power.
#15
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Who the hell said you said anything........it seems the consensus throughout the thread is that running E85 is plain safe, where going meth and other electronic safety stuff CAN cause you to lose an engine if something fails during a hard run......
You didn't get that out of my post.....? Did you see me quote anyone in particular?
I'm planning to run full time E85 on my boost set up and this thread is exactly a subject I'm interested in. Some people say to run meth with it and some say its not needed.
.
You didn't get that out of my post.....? Did you see me quote anyone in particular?
I'm planning to run full time E85 on my boost set up and this thread is exactly a subject I'm interested in. Some people say to run meth with it and some say its not needed.
.
If it was an honest question I'm sorry I took it the wrong way.
The answer would be no, many things can fail. But taking out additional systems that CAN fail lowers your risk factor.
Meth failing and hurting can only happen if you are depending on the meth for octane/fuel. On a lower HP car you can easily tune off meth, then just run it for cooling/iat advantage and if it fails nothing bad happens, just means you are running without meth and may lose some power. Without knowing what the OP is going for he may not even need safety devices. My car doesn't go lean off meth, it runs fine without it, but it does pull 6-7 degrees of timing without it which kills power.
#16
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True, either will work. But meth inj has just as many (if not more) pitfalls as E85.
1.) If your relying on meth inj to control detonation and something happens to the alky kit/pump you'll blow the motor in a hurry.
2.) if your fuel pump drops and the meth keeps spraying... Also blows the motor.
3.)Depending on how much of your total WOT fuel your replacing with meth you also need to worry about even cylinder distribution. Another thing you don’t worry about with E85. There is a reason fuel injection systems don't use one huge injector pre throttlebody.
Friend of mine blew a pretty expensive motor pushing it on pump and alky inj. The fuel pump went out mid pass, ran just lean enough to detonate the crap out of the motor. It was a total loss, even took the block out.
If he had be running e85 and the fuel pump dropped off the motor would have just died.
Several things to consider.... I've ran both. Less chance of failure in an E85 system IMO.
1.) If your relying on meth inj to control detonation and something happens to the alky kit/pump you'll blow the motor in a hurry.
2.) if your fuel pump drops and the meth keeps spraying... Also blows the motor.
3.)Depending on how much of your total WOT fuel your replacing with meth you also need to worry about even cylinder distribution. Another thing you don’t worry about with E85. There is a reason fuel injection systems don't use one huge injector pre throttlebody.
Friend of mine blew a pretty expensive motor pushing it on pump and alky inj. The fuel pump went out mid pass, ran just lean enough to detonate the crap out of the motor. It was a total loss, even took the block out.
If he had be running e85 and the fuel pump dropped off the motor would have just died.
Several things to consider.... I've ran both. Less chance of failure in an E85 system IMO.
2) LOL
3) The problem is overstated here. Run it a little fatter. Same reason we aren't running lean and mean at 12.8:1 with FI. Leave a little room for error.
A friend of mine ran e85. He blew his motor. It wouldn't happen with meth+pump. I know a guy!
#17
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I know I’ll regret asking, but what the heck are you talking about with #3? Run what a little fatter? How does that have anything to do with even distribution of the Aux inj.?
You need to run A LOT of meth inj. if you are going to get the same octane/detonation threshold as E85. Even distribution to the cyls is very important at high volumes. That’s why they have direct injection kits, direct injection nitrous, and fuel injection in general.
Arguing the fact that a dual fuel system (meth+pump) is not more prone to error than a single fuel system (e85) is asinine. Which performs better is disputable.
Sorry to hear about your buddy's E85 experience. I'd guess he doesn't have a clue how to tune and it wasn't the fuels fault. But again I wasn't arguing whether meth+pump worked, I know it works. I said it was not as reliable as E85 alone.
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My meth pump failed a few weeks ago. I saw it leaking. New one is in. Regardless the tune is pulling out so much timing in the event of a failure the car will fall dead on it's face anyway. Might see a fouled plug. Proper tuning goes a long way with the stock ecm. Aftermarket, forget it. Your point is just null and void.
If the fuel pump drops pressure and you DON'T have meth you blow the motor too. It takes 4x as much meth vs gas to sustain combustion. Your gonna need the pump running at a pretty constant 50% duty cycle while spraying a metric **** ton of meth to see your scenario play out. What would actually happen is the motor would cut out.
Everybody knows the # on these motors are most prone to detonation. If the WB says 11.8:1 you can assume #7 is less happy than the other cyclinders. I would fatten it up to 11.5:1 just to be cautious about that. With heavy meth injection OR wet nitrous I'm gonna go a little fatter to account for possible distribution issues.
Meth/pump is not as knock resistant as e85. No doubt. Your dual/triple pump setup has the same pitfalls as a meth pump though. So does your gigantic single pump running off a stock charging system and stock ecm. Little voltage drop leans it out. 1 of 3 pump fails, and you don't know it.
You are spreading bad information
If the fuel pump drops pressure and you DON'T have meth you blow the motor too. It takes 4x as much meth vs gas to sustain combustion. Your gonna need the pump running at a pretty constant 50% duty cycle while spraying a metric **** ton of meth to see your scenario play out. What would actually happen is the motor would cut out.
Everybody knows the # on these motors are most prone to detonation. If the WB says 11.8:1 you can assume #7 is less happy than the other cyclinders. I would fatten it up to 11.5:1 just to be cautious about that. With heavy meth injection OR wet nitrous I'm gonna go a little fatter to account for possible distribution issues.
Meth/pump is not as knock resistant as e85. No doubt. Your dual/triple pump setup has the same pitfalls as a meth pump though. So does your gigantic single pump running off a stock charging system and stock ecm. Little voltage drop leans it out. 1 of 3 pump fails, and you don't know it.
You are spreading bad information
#19
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My meth pump failed a few weeks ago. I saw it leaking. New one is in. Regardless the tune is pulling out so much timing in the event of a failure the car will fall dead on it's face anyway. Might see a fouled plug. Proper tuning goes a long way with the stock ecm. Aftermarket, forget it. Your point is just null and void.
DC of the pump is totally irrelevant why did you even bring that up? 50% DC with 1 30gph nozzles and 50% DC with 2 30gph nozzles will produce totally different results.
As far as the **** ton goes I don't know how to argue that. Can you put a number in there or something?
I replaced 30% of my WOT fuel with meth inj on my pump gas 3.8 turbo motor. Making roughly 620whp or so. As long as you spray 100% METH and not a water/meth mixture I had no ign issues. (OEM ign)
Everybody knows the #7 on these motors are most prone to detonation. If the WB says 11.8:1 you can assume #7 is less happy than the other cylinders. I would fatten it up to 11.5:1 just to be cautious about that. With heavy meth injection OR wet nitrous I'm gonna go a little fatter to account for possible distribution issues.
Lets pretend its a perfect world and all your cyls have a perfect 12.5 AFR. At X amount of boost your going to run into detonation no matter what the AFR is because you've reached the limit of yout fuels octane.
In comes meth injection. It's the percentage of meth that makes it into each cylinder that essentially raises your octane. But if your spraying it all in the throttle body your not going to get even amounts of meth into the cylinders. So some will run at less octane than others. This isn't a problem at low levels, but as you raise the boost each cyl needs more meth. Eventually one will one cyl will detonate. Alot depends in the intake manifold design as well. Some will act worse than others.
Meth/pump is not as knock resistant as e85. No doubt. Your dual/triple pump setup has the same pitfalls as a meth pump though. So does your gigantic single pump running off a stock charging system and stock ecm. Little voltage drop leans it out. 1 of 3 pump fails, and you don't know it.
You are spreading bad information
You are spreading bad information
I run one pump. On an OEM charging system with OEM alternator(ls1). It does not lean out and my voltage doesn't drop. I have logs with a steady 13.4x across the board.
My pump is a magnafuel 750 protuner. Draws 14a at 45 psi. I have one 35a relay powering it.
What bad information am I spreading exactly?
I drive my car to and from the track and all over, pump doesnt over heat and I never even think about it. It's just a great pump.