Need some Help please
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 18
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From: In Sunny Alberta Canada
Power goals are a tough thing to quantify. I will tell you my motivation. I am rear mounting the turbo;s so, two turbo's = no mufflers, also no intercooler required. So the money I save on no Intercooler and mufflers pays for the second turbo.
Because I am novice at this my impression is I may be able to run two different sized turbos feeding a single return pipe to the engine, one to respond quicker at low RPM, that will overcome the latency and the other to pick up the needed air at engine speed.
So the turbo idea stemmed from no mufflers, the space is available and the lack of need for a intercooler.
So the target for HP is more a target for a smooth running highly responsive car.
Because I am novice at this my impression is I may be able to run two different sized turbos feeding a single return pipe to the engine, one to respond quicker at low RPM, that will overcome the latency and the other to pick up the needed air at engine speed.
So the turbo idea stemmed from no mufflers, the space is available and the lack of need for a intercooler.
So the target for HP is more a target for a smooth running highly responsive car.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: In Sunny Alberta Canada
When you mount your turbos at the tailpipe of a car, the exhaust temp has lost all its heat.(stick your finger in a tailpipe, its warm but not hot.
Most Turbo temp is created by proximity too or part of the exhaust manifold. So by mounting your turbos at the tailpipe you remove all the heat.
I have a 63 Split Window Vette, so there is no room without hood distortion . So the Roadster Shop frame I will have will have 4 pipe holes in the transmission cross member. 2 pipes for exhaust and 2 pipes for a return to the engine.
Squires in Utah suggests a couple of Turbo T3/T4s with this configuration.
For a vette all you do is remove the spare tire rack and you have a very nice area to install the Turbos and you can tuck them up tight to the underside of the Gas tank and still have a stock looking tail piece.
Boost level I really am not sure, I claim no expertise wth Turbo's the closest I ever got to a Turbo is my Dodge Dually Turbo Diesel.
So I cannot intelligently state any of the technicals at the moment. I am an old wrench head and catch on quick, I do all the work myself.... you learn quick or things go kaboom.
Most Turbo temp is created by proximity too or part of the exhaust manifold. So by mounting your turbos at the tailpipe you remove all the heat.
I have a 63 Split Window Vette, so there is no room without hood distortion . So the Roadster Shop frame I will have will have 4 pipe holes in the transmission cross member. 2 pipes for exhaust and 2 pipes for a return to the engine.
Squires in Utah suggests a couple of Turbo T3/T4s with this configuration.
For a vette all you do is remove the spare tire rack and you have a very nice area to install the Turbos and you can tuck them up tight to the underside of the Gas tank and still have a stock looking tail piece.
Boost level I really am not sure, I claim no expertise wth Turbo's the closest I ever got to a Turbo is my Dodge Dually Turbo Diesel.
So I cannot intelligently state any of the technicals at the moment. I am an old wrench head and catch on quick, I do all the work myself.... you learn quick or things go kaboom.
TECH Regular
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 433
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Gonna add in a little FYI here, so this doesn't perpetuate.
Very little heat transfers from the turbine to compressor in any configuration, front mount or rear mount. The vast majority of the compressed air temperature is completely independent of the physical compressor altogether. The thermal energy that already exists in the air, before it's compressed, is condensed. That alone, creates the majority of the temperature increase.
Sure, there's likely going to be some temperature difference. However, not a real notable difference... not for that specific reason anyway.
Even in a rear mounted application the compressor output can be very very hot. However, the surface area of the charge pipe from the rear to the front of the vehicle can effectively reduce charge temps like an intercooler would. Perhaps not quite as effective as a properly sized intercooler, but the effect is real and measurable. The greater the length and diameter of the pipe, the greater it's charge cooling effect... and I'd absolutely use aluminum for the purpose.
Very little heat transfers from the turbine to compressor in any configuration, front mount or rear mount. The vast majority of the compressed air temperature is completely independent of the physical compressor altogether. The thermal energy that already exists in the air, before it's compressed, is condensed. That alone, creates the majority of the temperature increase.
Sure, there's likely going to be some temperature difference. However, not a real notable difference... not for that specific reason anyway.
Even in a rear mounted application the compressor output can be very very hot. However, the surface area of the charge pipe from the rear to the front of the vehicle can effectively reduce charge temps like an intercooler would. Perhaps not quite as effective as a properly sized intercooler, but the effect is real and measurable. The greater the length and diameter of the pipe, the greater it's charge cooling effect... and I'd absolutely use aluminum for the purpose.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
I think we need to go back a little bit here.
You dont mention a power goal...yet is is a fairly important aspect to have before going further. Power and boost are related...and all matter for CR etc.
You dont mention what vehicle this is, or whether you even have any electronics etc. Again, this will matter going forward especially with regards to tuning and ease of tuning. You just state you bought a crate LS3 motor.
There is a little bit of a contradiction talking about a smooth responsive motor...then almost in same sentence saying rear mount turbo. Smooth no problem, but rear mount perhaps not as responsive as it could be.
No intercooler and boost will pretty much make good fuel like E85 essential unless CR is dropped a reasonable amount.
But again, it all depends on goals. And tuning...depends what you're working with in the first place.
As many say dyno's are not necessary, but for any street tuning, experience/knowledge is necessary. ( as it is for dyno too of course )
But some systems will be easier to tune than others, especially a good system that allows live changes and offers good logging etc vs stuff that require lots of re-flashes.
You dont mention a power goal...yet is is a fairly important aspect to have before going further. Power and boost are related...and all matter for CR etc.
You dont mention what vehicle this is, or whether you even have any electronics etc. Again, this will matter going forward especially with regards to tuning and ease of tuning. You just state you bought a crate LS3 motor.
There is a little bit of a contradiction talking about a smooth responsive motor...then almost in same sentence saying rear mount turbo. Smooth no problem, but rear mount perhaps not as responsive as it could be.
No intercooler and boost will pretty much make good fuel like E85 essential unless CR is dropped a reasonable amount.
But again, it all depends on goals. And tuning...depends what you're working with in the first place.
As many say dyno's are not necessary, but for any street tuning, experience/knowledge is necessary. ( as it is for dyno too of course )
But some systems will be easier to tune than others, especially a good system that allows live changes and offers good logging etc vs stuff that require lots of re-flashes.
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: In Sunny Alberta Canada
Spooling up should be fairly quick....but slow compared to a front end mount. I do not intend to race or pink slip race either lol
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: In Sunny Alberta Canada
Gonna add in a little FYI here, so this doesn't perpetuate.
Very little heat transfers from the turbine to compressor in any configuration, front mount or rear mount. The vast majority of the compressed air temperature is completely independent of the physical compressor altogether. The thermal energy that already exists in the air, before it's compressed, is condensed. That alone, creates the majority of the temperature increase.
Sure, there's likely going to be some temperature difference. However, not a real notable difference... not for that specific reason anyway.
Even in a rear mounted application the compressor output can be very very hot. However, the surface area of the charge pipe from the rear to the front of the vehicle can effectively reduce charge temps like an intercooler would. Perhaps not quite as effective as a properly sized intercooler, but the effect is real and measurable. The greater the length and diameter of the pipe, the greater it's charge cooling effect... and I'd absolutely use aluminum for the purpose.
Very little heat transfers from the turbine to compressor in any configuration, front mount or rear mount. The vast majority of the compressed air temperature is completely independent of the physical compressor altogether. The thermal energy that already exists in the air, before it's compressed, is condensed. That alone, creates the majority of the temperature increase.
Sure, there's likely going to be some temperature difference. However, not a real notable difference... not for that specific reason anyway.
Even in a rear mounted application the compressor output can be very very hot. However, the surface area of the charge pipe from the rear to the front of the vehicle can effectively reduce charge temps like an intercooler would. Perhaps not quite as effective as a properly sized intercooler, but the effect is real and measurable. The greater the length and diameter of the pipe, the greater it's charge cooling effect... and I'd absolutely use aluminum for the purpose.
Aluminum return pipe is my choice as well. I am investigating fin like additions much like a radiator to dissipate the heat quickly.
The exhaust gas from an exhaust manifold and the residual heat generated to the turbo housing , plus the compression assists in adding heat to the air.
So even though it may be low importance, its still an assist. I would suggest 30% of the heat leaving a turbo to the inter cooler is generated by the proximity in the engine compartment. Should be easily checked. Once configured we will do a check to see what the temp of turbo air is in both cases, a friend of mine has an engine mounted turbo in his 67 Vette
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: In Sunny Alberta Canada
I think we need to go back a little bit here.
You dont mention a power goal...yet is is a fairly important aspect to have before going further. Power and boost are related...and all matter for CR etc.
You dont mention what vehicle this is, or whether you even have any electronics etc. Again, this will matter going forward especially with regards to tuning and ease of tuning. You just state you bought a crate LS3 motor.
There is a little bit of a contradiction talking about a smooth responsive motor...then almost in same sentence saying rear mount turbo. Smooth no problem, but rear mount perhaps not as responsive as it could be.
No intercooler and boost will pretty much make good fuel like E85 essential unless CR is dropped a reasonable amount.
But again, it all depends on goals. And tuning...depends what you're working with in the first place.
As many say dyno's are not necessary, but for any street tuning, experience/knowledge is necessary. ( as it is for dyno too of course )
But some systems will be easier to tune than others, especially a good system that allows live changes and offers good logging etc vs stuff that require lots of re-flashes.
You dont mention a power goal...yet is is a fairly important aspect to have before going further. Power and boost are related...and all matter for CR etc.
You dont mention what vehicle this is, or whether you even have any electronics etc. Again, this will matter going forward especially with regards to tuning and ease of tuning. You just state you bought a crate LS3 motor.
There is a little bit of a contradiction talking about a smooth responsive motor...then almost in same sentence saying rear mount turbo. Smooth no problem, but rear mount perhaps not as responsive as it could be.
No intercooler and boost will pretty much make good fuel like E85 essential unless CR is dropped a reasonable amount.
But again, it all depends on goals. And tuning...depends what you're working with in the first place.
As many say dyno's are not necessary, but for any street tuning, experience/knowledge is necessary. ( as it is for dyno too of course )
But some systems will be easier to tune than others, especially a good system that allows live changes and offers good logging etc vs stuff that require lots of re-flashes.
Rather than seek some mathematical Performance Goals and attempt to achieve them. I am in a position to do the reverse. I would like twin turbo's for balance and display in Car shows. It will be trailer queen quality car but driven. So a balanced set up on the underside of the car is for show.
Now, how does that relate to Horsepower, lag and performance, I am not sure, hence the need for a good tuning package.
If you asked me if I would be disappointed with 600hp from a 525hp engine when I spend as much money as I am about ioo, I would say yes, I would disappointed.
So what number would likely satisfy me? Perhaps 1HP more than a Z06 would at least make me feel Like it was not all disappointment?
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: In Sunny Alberta Canada
