Its in an ls swapped vehicle so I don't have as much room as most people. The heat exchanger and pump seem to work well recovering after a pull. Just heat builds up fast on a pull

 

This thread focuses on the evaporation of water but doesn't say much about the evaporation of methanol.

It is stated that water evaporates at 212 degrees. Methanol evaporates at 148 degrees. But both of the numbers are when each liquid is not under pressure.

If we assume that water when it evaporate draws heat out of the air when it evaporates then I think we have to assume methanol does too, but at a much lower temperature.

So if blower outlet temps are elevated to temps reaching 148 degrees then the methanol will evaporate to gas while at the same time drawing heat out of the air quicker than water. If this is true then IMO the methanol plays a role in reducing IAT's just as much, if not more, than water.

The AlkyControl pump advertises pump pressures up to 250 psi with the ability to ramp up pressures at low boost (2-3 lbs) to maximum boost and aslo pump pressure fairly quickly to eliminate lag.

So how does methanol or water react to evaporation when it is under pressure? We know water under pressure boils at temps higher than 212 degrees. Can we assume methanol reacts the same way?

However, methanol and water is under pressure only between the pump outlet, the lines, and the nozzle nozzle outlet. Once the mix of water and methanol escapes the nozzle, what happens? Do both expand and evaporate quicker or not because each is no longer under pressure?

I don't know - just asking a question. I would think much faster since both liquids are atomized by the nozzle as it escapes the nozzle under extreme pressure (200 + lbs psi).

Another thing to consider is if the both liquids reach their boiling point and evaporate quicker (time) dependent upon their starting temperature. I have found that water reaches its boiling point if I fill the pot with hot water from the faucet than if I fill it will cold water and wait for it to boil. But have also been told that is false and that it doesn't make any difference.

OP doesn't mention the methanol pump being used or the mix of water and methanol being used. I would think a mix of at least 50/50 would be the best starting point since the boiling point of methanol is much lower than water.

I have also read in some posts that the water/meth should be injected into a system with the least amount of resistance so it won't cling or pool in some areas.

But I have also noticed that water evaporates more readily from a hot sidewalk than it does from a cold sidewalk.

Is this really a concern if the inside surface area of the piping and/or heat exchanger/fmic is heat soaked north of 148 degrees? At that temp the methanol will evaporate same as water does when it contacts hot spots inside of a head. So is there any real evidence that it does pool and hinder evaporation as some suggest?

To the OP I think his mix is important with respect to the amount of methanol and also his pump specification and it's maximum pressure and its ramp rate.

As for me after reading this thread, I think I am going back to at least a 50/50 mix of methanol and water as opposed to just washer fluid as some suggest on my ATI Procharged fbody with an AlkyControl system.

Please don't make fun of my comments. I'm not an engineer or a scientist. But for those who are, perhaps you can answer my questions about the evaporation of the methanol and also about pump pressure and its possible effect on evaporation.

 

Exactly pre intercooler Im sure my temps are 200+ degrees. 10 degrees for every pound of boost plus ambient temp.

 

If you don't have an AlkyControl pump, I would contact Julio and get his opinion about his research on pump pressure, ramp up rates, and various water/meth combinations in order to maximize the reduction of your IAT's.

Have you considered dual nozzles? One nozzle after the charger and another directly into the intercooler. I believe his pump can support two nozzles - largest nozzle preintercooler, smaller nozzle(s) into the intercooler.

Just my unscientific opinion, but I think at 200 degrees the methanol under pressure is vaporizing and dispersing immediately and taking heat out of the charge and so is a lot of the water since it is pressurized up to 200 or more lbs of psi.

Have you tested with with different nozzle sizes?

 

Ive seen this car I think, really nice silver camaro. Mines in an 83 cutlass, so I hear you about the space. maybe you could post a pic of your set up so we can see what your dealing with.

 

My turbo LS is Alky Control equipped.
Just discussed this w/ Julio.
My system is a dual nozzle. 1#10, 1 #15.
His suggestion is:
1 nozzle just before the t/b.
1 just after the turbo compressor outlet.
This allows for cooling the intake piping, and also injects the total necessary fluid volume.
I don't use a mix.. Straight M1.
In the case of the blower, [No pressurized intake tubing], I'd put both nozzles just before the t/b, use straight M1.
I agree w/ the I/C water volume issue being in need of correction.
In the "FWIW" dept.. There's LOTS of turbo Buicks around w/ alky. A visit to turbobuick.com might provide some useful info.

 

Right now I'm using standard washer fluid as I get it for a dollar a gallon compared to boost juice or meth for 7+ dollars a gallon

 

Mix 3 bottles of heat in a gal of blue ww makes it 50/50 water/meth. Cool thing about the water is it will keep combustion temps down. This is why I'm able to run 14lbs on a stock bottom end. But, you need the meth for the octane. Too much water will hurt power. I would definitely get that thing sucking some cooler air

 

First thing I guess to realize is that water has a partial pressure. Even when frozen to an ice cube in the freezer, it still has a partial pressure, and water molecules are constantly leaving the ice cubes. That is why they shrink in their trays and will disappear completely from an ice tray if you wait. This is also why food "freeze dries" in the freezer.

So if you have water sitting in a bowl at room temp, some is still evaporating due to partial pressure. The same is true if we inject into a moving air stream- except now it is being whipped around also, so it will evaporate even faster you could imagine. So even when the temp is below 212*F, the water is still constantly converting a partial portion to gas state, which is what absorbs that massive chunk of energy, the phase change. If we inject water ealry in the intake stream, it can evaporate all along the way, and cool the entire air path along with. This is why people seeking increased mass flow from a compressor, for example, will inject the methanol at the compressor or nearby, they want the phase change to occur along the entire air path, cooling all of the air in the system for a density improvement.

When injecting water(or methanol) nearby the cylinder, The phase change near the cylinder or in the cylinder is too far to cool the plumbing that precedes it. However it means more of the water/meth liquid will make its way into the cylinder and participate. So in theory, the farther we inject from the cylinder, the more we would need to get some final total mass of liquid in position for the combustion reaction. If the water is already a gas state when it moves past the valve into the cylinder, the benefit of it's phase change is lost and the EGT will not be lowered effectively by those gas state molecules which cannot be further phase changed, even if the phase change occurring earlier means a cooler, denser air charge, this in and of itself will not do much to help control EGT. Methanol has an added bonus of being a high octane fuel, so even if it enters the cylinder as a gas state it will help with the octane of the fuel (how the fuel reacts to high compression ratio and high temperature, it will behave less violently as we raise octane)

 

I already have a wrapped 5" inlet and half my inner fender cut out. I can burn a gallon and a half of washer fluid in the time it takes to burn 18 gallons of gas

 

Water will always reduce power, its like pissing on a fire. It absorbs energy.

No engine will increase in power from adding water. What is allowing you to make more power is the reduction in temperature water provides. It means now you can cram more air and fuel into the chamber (raise the boost) and the resulting temperature and pressure will not get out of hand when the spark occurs enough to explode the head off the engine.

So you can make more power by pushing more air into the engine, all the time pretty much.
Water by itself will only cool things off and reduce output by absorbing energy.

You can see and control this phenomenon through the use of EGT gauges. If you know some feasible turbine exhaust inlet temperature, for example BorgWarner recommended around 1250*F I think. You could then install a gauge right before the turbine and inject just enough water to hit that goal, protecting the equipment.

 

I just buy 5 gal of VP m1 and mix it with distilled water from Walmart . I prob go thru a gal every tank full. Depends how much I'm on it . Even with the high temps, how does it go? Are you happy with it?

 

It's goes ok, not near what I expect for the boost I run and the money I have invested.

 

Sell the KB and get a whipple. There is another member on here that has a used one. You will be much happier I think. Highest intake temps I've ever
seen was 130 on a 95 degree day with Ac on. You are leaving a huge amount of power on the table with the high AITs and resulting timing being pulled.

 

I think washer fluid is only 20 percent methanol.

IMO your mix has to be at least 50/50. Testing with that mix should tell you quickly the effect it has on your IAT's and also power.

Don't know what nozzle sizes you have tested with, but would think that if you increase the methanol content that you could possibly reduce nozzle size and as a result reduce consumption. We know for a fact that methanol evaporates faster at a lower temp than water (148 degrees). Also, at 200 psi the smaller the nozzle the better the distribution into the charge pathway.

I also think your pump and how it ramps up is important. IMO the ramp rate is critically important because you don't want to flood (bog) the system at first when it starts and then go lean at maximum boost or vice versa. I like the variable control dial on the AlkySystem because you can adjust it so easily when you test.

I suppose you might also consider 4 nozzles that are much smaller compared to two that are four times larger.

But to establish a good baseline when you test, I would start with methanol and distilled water and leave the washer fluid out of the equation.

I just don't like the idea of injecting whatever else is in the washer fluid into the engine. Who knows, perhaps the soap etc in the washer fluid actually hinders evaporation because it is an emulsifying agent and also a surface active agent. That property actually causes the fluid to cling to a surface which is not what we want. We want the water and methanol to disperse as evenly as possible into the charge pathway and not cling. And if it does cling we want it to boil off and evaporate. We don't want it to act like water wetter.

So IMO even though washer fluid is great for getting the crud off of a dirty windshield, but that doesn't necessarily mean the additives in it don't effect it's ability to evaporate as quickly as water.

In addition if it has a deicer such as ethylene glycol, that like antifreeze actually raises the boiling point of water.

So I am not so sure at all that it is a good idea to be using washer fluid even though so many do. I was told at first that I could use it, but I think distilled water is much better.

 

-20* washer fluid is 70/30 water and methanol. Some dye and a bittering agent. Nothing else. Glycols and surfactants are present in other temperature mixes and say so on the bottle.

Please do a little research before you post. There are quite a few of us running 70/30 and it works great with pump fuel in the 500-700hp range.

 

I'm curious how far 100% water will take it. But I can't afford to find out. Somebody, test this...