Sloppy Stage 2 cam versus The World
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 314
From: Baltimore County, MD.
Sloppy Stage 2 cam versus The World I have one in my 6.0, for over 2 years now.
Had wanted to swap in a Summit Stage 2, or maybe even a BTR, but so far, not sad I didn't...subject to change after the second part of the dyno test comes out.
All cams tested in a 4.8, FWIW...
What do you guys think will happen in Part II, when BOOST is added?
Same trends, or will one shine?
Had wanted to swap in a Summit Stage 2, or maybe even a BTR, but so far, not sad I didn't...subject to change after the second part of the dyno test comes out.
All cams tested in a 4.8, FWIW...
What do you guys think will happen in Part II, when BOOST is added?
Same trends, or will one shine?
Part 2 is pretty much the exact test I've been wanting to see, but he likely wont make it apples to apples lol. I want to see the exact same setup, same boost, AFR, timing,CR, etc. Only swap the cams, and don't run it at 8 psi either. Put 20 psi to it and let's see if the boost numbers/curves match the NA.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 314
From: Baltimore County, MD.
Part 2 is pretty much the exact test I've been wanting to see, but he likely wont make it apples to apples lol. I want to see the exact same setup, same boost, AFR, timing,CR, etc. Only swap the cams, and don't run it at 8 psi either. Put 20 psi to it and let's see if the boost numbers/curves match the NA.
This came at a perfect time. I'm building a 5.3 for a buddy of mine and opted to use the Sloppy Stage 2 for this. Using the stock GTO 34# injectors, LS1 intake. Thanks for posting this.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 314
From: Baltimore County, MD.
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I had a thread on this a few weeks back and was told to wait for this video to see dyno graphs that would show what these cams do and how. I wouldve preferred to see the test motor be of bigger displacement to dramatize results more effectively. The 4.8 as Richard said in the video..all these cams are essentially on the large scale. However in my thread, Summit Racing had an excellent post that Ill paste here worth a good read and I think is more detailed in answering characteristics of these cams and how to go about choosing what works best for you. I dont think part 2 of Richards video is going to say much more than adding boost only mirrors what the cams have done N/A with just more power. That simply doesnt cut it as an answer to me but maybe this response from Summit helps some of you guys as to what to expect when where how:
Curious to hear everyone elses thoughts on this subject.
This is a good thread OP. We see you're trying to get into the fine details of cams. We like looking at individual valve events. It's one of the first things we look at when it comes time to select a cam.
So we're talking turbo cams here. All five that you've discussed are pretty similar with minor differences. Let’s layout the cam specs and valve events.
LJMS stage 2 turbo cam: .605"/.598", 226/231, 113+4 with 2.5* of overlap
IVO: 4* BTDC
IVC: 42* ABDC
EVO: 52.5* BBDC
EVC: -1.5* ATDC
Summit stage 2 turbo SUM-8706: .600"/.575", 226/230, 113+4 with 2* of overlap
IVO: 4* BTDC
IVC: 42* ABDC
EVO: 52* BBDC
EVC: -2* ATDC
BTR stage 2 turbo cam: .605"/.598", 226/231, 113+4 with 2.5* of overlap
IVO: 4* BTDC
IVC: 42* ABDC
EVO: 52.5* BBDC
EVC: -1.5* ATDC
TSP stage 2 (6.0) turbo cam: .600"/.600", 224/230, 113+3 with 1* of overlap
IVO: 2* BTDC
IVC: 42* ABDC
EVO: 51* BBDC
EVC: -1* ATDC
Sloppy Stage 2 cam: .585"/.585", 228/230, 112+4 with 5* of overlap
IVO: 6* BTDC
IVC: 42* ABDC
EVO: 51* BBDC
EVC: -1* ATDC
What are these events and what do they mean?
IVO: Is basically idle quality. The earlier you open the intake, the more air you're taking in on the downstroke (at the expense of idle vacuum).
IVC: Is building compression and torque down low with closing the valve early. Or using inertial charge longer after BDC and closing the valve later to increase power higher in the rpm range.
EVO: Is blowdown. Most of the blowdown occurs even before BDC because of high residual cylinder pressure. Earlier = better evacuation and less pumping loss on the piston upstroke at high speed vs. slight loss of pressure on piston during last degrees of power stroke for low end. Early EVO is good for a turbo application to help the turbo(s) spool up.
EVC: Is in conjunction with overlap. Most useful with open headers, equal length headers, and primary lengths wave tuned to the intake runner and rpm. We don't place much emphasis on extending this event later as it produces reversion with street performance exhaust systems. You will find it common with turbo cams that the EVC is actually BTDC vs. ATDC. This is to help prevent reversion of exhaust gasses getting back into the intake.
Going by the valve events all 5 of these cams would perform about the same.
- With the IVO. They would idle about the same with a nice steady lope. The TSP would be slightly milder and the SS2 slightly choppier.
- The IVC between all of them is 42*. They would all have near identical powerbands giving up some low-end for a strong mid-range and good top-end.
- The EVO is all within 1.5* of each other. These will have good evacuation and be good for turbo spool up.
- The EVC event between them all is -1* to -2.5*. This means they all close the exhaust valve BTDC which is good for alleviating exhaust reversion.
KEY:
IVC= Intake Valve Closing
IVO= Intake Valve Opening
EVO= Exhaust Valve Opening
EVC= Exhaust Valve Closing
BTDC= Before Top Dead Center
ATDC= After Top Dead Center
BBDC= Before Bottom Dead Center
ABDC= After Bottom Dead center
The Summit Cam lobes are proprietary and they carry well at high rpm even with a 918 Beehive spring. This can extend the powerband more than other cams despite similar valve timing. Note Summit Turbo cams use a slightly lower lift exhaust lobe that is softer to break open easier against cylinder pressure on exhaust opening. This takes stress off the rockers and pushrods etc.
Sorry for the long post. We saw you were looking for more fine details on cams and we thought what better way than the valve events.
So we're talking turbo cams here. All five that you've discussed are pretty similar with minor differences. Let’s layout the cam specs and valve events.
LJMS stage 2 turbo cam: .605"/.598", 226/231, 113+4 with 2.5* of overlap
IVO: 4* BTDC
IVC: 42* ABDC
EVO: 52.5* BBDC
EVC: -1.5* ATDC
Summit stage 2 turbo SUM-8706: .600"/.575", 226/230, 113+4 with 2* of overlap
IVO: 4* BTDC
IVC: 42* ABDC
EVO: 52* BBDC
EVC: -2* ATDC
BTR stage 2 turbo cam: .605"/.598", 226/231, 113+4 with 2.5* of overlap
IVO: 4* BTDC
IVC: 42* ABDC
EVO: 52.5* BBDC
EVC: -1.5* ATDC
TSP stage 2 (6.0) turbo cam: .600"/.600", 224/230, 113+3 with 1* of overlap
IVO: 2* BTDC
IVC: 42* ABDC
EVO: 51* BBDC
EVC: -1* ATDC
Sloppy Stage 2 cam: .585"/.585", 228/230, 112+4 with 5* of overlap
IVO: 6* BTDC
IVC: 42* ABDC
EVO: 51* BBDC
EVC: -1* ATDC
What are these events and what do they mean?
IVO: Is basically idle quality. The earlier you open the intake, the more air you're taking in on the downstroke (at the expense of idle vacuum).
IVC: Is building compression and torque down low with closing the valve early. Or using inertial charge longer after BDC and closing the valve later to increase power higher in the rpm range.
EVO: Is blowdown. Most of the blowdown occurs even before BDC because of high residual cylinder pressure. Earlier = better evacuation and less pumping loss on the piston upstroke at high speed vs. slight loss of pressure on piston during last degrees of power stroke for low end. Early EVO is good for a turbo application to help the turbo(s) spool up.
EVC: Is in conjunction with overlap. Most useful with open headers, equal length headers, and primary lengths wave tuned to the intake runner and rpm. We don't place much emphasis on extending this event later as it produces reversion with street performance exhaust systems. You will find it common with turbo cams that the EVC is actually BTDC vs. ATDC. This is to help prevent reversion of exhaust gasses getting back into the intake.
Going by the valve events all 5 of these cams would perform about the same.
- With the IVO. They would idle about the same with a nice steady lope. The TSP would be slightly milder and the SS2 slightly choppier.
- The IVC between all of them is 42*. They would all have near identical powerbands giving up some low-end for a strong mid-range and good top-end.
- The EVO is all within 1.5* of each other. These will have good evacuation and be good for turbo spool up.
- The EVC event between them all is -1* to -2.5*. This means they all close the exhaust valve BTDC which is good for alleviating exhaust reversion.
KEY:
IVC= Intake Valve Closing
IVO= Intake Valve Opening
EVO= Exhaust Valve Opening
EVC= Exhaust Valve Closing
BTDC= Before Top Dead Center
ATDC= After Top Dead Center
BBDC= Before Bottom Dead Center
ABDC= After Bottom Dead center
The Summit Cam lobes are proprietary and they carry well at high rpm even with a 918 Beehive spring. This can extend the powerband more than other cams despite similar valve timing. Note Summit Turbo cams use a slightly lower lift exhaust lobe that is softer to break open easier against cylinder pressure on exhaust opening. This takes stress off the rockers and pushrods etc.
Sorry for the long post. We saw you were looking for more fine details on cams and we thought what better way than the valve events.
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If I wanted the car to merely sound badass instead of being badass, I would just stick a big solid roller cam, hog out the heads, put the compression ratio to 14:1, run big headers and run Naturally Aspirated. I could've saved a lot of money doing that over the turbo systems. But with the turbo, I get a stable Idle, drives like stock in traffic, doesn't foul plugs every week, doesn't reek of unburnt gas idling, runs like a demon with the foot planted.
Even with the LT1( I now have a blueprinted 5.3 twin turbo in the car) with the PT7675, I slaughtered every GT500 (3 of them, 2 on the street, 1 at the dragstrip), Corvette, WRX/Sti, EVO, Challenger, 2011 SS vortech S/C, 2006 S/C GTO, several sportbikes(all less than 1 liter), etc). I'll be the first to say I was dismissive of the exhaust note of turbo cars, starting with the first time I watched some Buick G/N's warming up their tires at Baytown, TX. But when I saw them make the passes and getting 10's and 11's, I changed my thinking.
Even with the LT1( I now have a blueprinted 5.3 twin turbo in the car) with the PT7675, I slaughtered every GT500 (3 of them, 2 on the street, 1 at the dragstrip), Corvette, WRX/Sti, EVO, Challenger, 2011 SS vortech S/C, 2006 S/C GTO, several sportbikes(all less than 1 liter), etc). I'll be the first to say I was dismissive of the exhaust note of turbo cars, starting with the first time I watched some Buick G/N's warming up their tires at Baytown, TX. But when I saw them make the passes and getting 10's and 11's, I changed my thinking.
^ I agree on how it run trumps how it sounds but I have, and would rather have something that does both. I'm running the stage 3 twin turbo cam from BTR/LJMS sounds awesome, runs awesome, could easily drive it everyday to work. As a matter of fact I did today lol.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 314
From: Baltimore County, MD.
...I have the luxury of keeping my car here at work, but for whatever reason, didn't take it home yesterday...so...instead drove to work this morning in the same old boring pickup truck, in perfectly fine "boost weather"...lol Do you have a video clip of it idling? A good friend of mine has a 416 stroker in his 2011SS and had a turbo for a time( now S/C, too many heat issues with the Turbo setup and couldn't fit enough turbo comensurate with the exhaust and VERY agressive cam) and it sounded really good(a bit loud to tell the truth!) . I've been running the Triple 12 cam and really like the overall performance. As it is now, traction is the limiting factor.
^ I agree on how it run trumps how it sounds but I have, and would rather have something that does both. I'm running the stage 3 twin turbo cam from BTR/LJMS sounds awesome, runs awesome, could easily drive it everyday to work. As a matter of fact I did today lol.
What I don't get is the bastard won't stick with common themes and parts. How many stock 5.3;s and 4.8's does he have laying around! But he had to use the 4.8 with aftermarket pistons!? 
I'm all for a 4.8 and I'm glad he chose that motor personally, but common sense would tell me most use a 5.3 or even a 6.0. Also glad to see he is revving them out to 7k this time... But it's a destroked baby motor! Rev the freek'n thing till power falls off! It's clearly still pulling even with the "junky" truck manifold.
And why test 6 cams that are so close to each other spec wise? The valve events are a bit different but they are all at similar ICA's and duration's. Where are the tighter LSA cams at? Going by Vizards formulas there's only 1 optimal LSA for a cams given overlap and duration. And only 1 overlap and duration thats optimal for best average power. That's mostly determined by the intake valve and bore size. With a 4.8 you should be on a 110 LSA and a 108 LSA for a 5.3. Then picking the duration's to suit the overlap and MAX RPM needs. Or so that's how I read it. (won't pretend to understand it) But his results and testing seem sound. And of course that's NA... But according to Richard that doesn't matter.
So if Richard states "all cams are boost cams" why are there no tight LSA "race cams" it's all shelf crap that averages out idle quality and street manors VS performance.
Still a great test... I'm just bitch'n....
As far as idle sound goes... you can tune a "lope" at idle with almost any cam. You can make an LS9 cam sound like a thumper... just need to play with the idle AFR and idle timing correction tables. All these cams are small and would idle similar to stock if I wasn't a child anf "fudged" the idle tables.
Not that I'm saying these are the most desirable idle sound clips in anyway... Iean mine out to the point of dying and use timing control to throw advance at it if idle goes below say 850. That causes the idle to jump up to 950ish and then timing is dropped back out...causing it to fall again. SO RPM bounces or "lopes" at the idle RPM I choose.
I'm all for a 4.8 and I'm glad he chose that motor personally, but common sense would tell me most use a 5.3 or even a 6.0. Also glad to see he is revving them out to 7k this time... But it's a destroked baby motor! Rev the freek'n thing till power falls off! It's clearly still pulling even with the "junky" truck manifold.And why test 6 cams that are so close to each other spec wise? The valve events are a bit different but they are all at similar ICA's and duration's. Where are the tighter LSA cams at? Going by Vizards formulas there's only 1 optimal LSA for a cams given overlap and duration. And only 1 overlap and duration thats optimal for best average power. That's mostly determined by the intake valve and bore size. With a 4.8 you should be on a 110 LSA and a 108 LSA for a 5.3. Then picking the duration's to suit the overlap and MAX RPM needs. Or so that's how I read it. (won't pretend to understand it) But his results and testing seem sound. And of course that's NA... But according to Richard that doesn't matter.
So if Richard states "all cams are boost cams" why are there no tight LSA "race cams" it's all shelf crap that averages out idle quality and street manors VS performance.
Still a great test... I'm just bitch'n....
As far as idle sound goes... you can tune a "lope" at idle with almost any cam. You can make an LS9 cam sound like a thumper... just need to play with the idle AFR and idle timing correction tables. All these cams are small and would idle similar to stock if I wasn't a child anf "fudged" the idle tables.
Not that I'm saying these are the most desirable idle sound clips in anyway... Iean mine out to the point of dying and use timing control to throw advance at it if idle goes below say 850. That causes the idle to jump up to 950ish and then timing is dropped back out...causing it to fall again. SO RPM bounces or "lopes" at the idle RPM I choose.Last edited by Forcefed86; May 13, 2020 at 10:49 AM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 314
From: Baltimore County, MD.
How many stock 5.3;s and 4.8's does he have laying around!
And why test 6 cams that are so close to each other spec wise? The valve events are a bit different but they are all at similar ICA's and duration's. Where are the tighter LSA cams at? Going by Vizards formulas there's only 1 optimal LSA for a cams given overlap and duration. And only 1 overlap and duration thats optimal for best average power. That's mostly determined by the intake valve and bore size. With a 4.8 you should be on a 110 LSA and a 108 LAS for a 5.3. Then picking the duration's to suit the overlap and MAX RPM needs. Or so thats how I read it. (won't pretend to understand it) But his results and testing seem sound. And of course that's NA... But according to Richard that doesn't matter.
And why test 6 cams that are so close to each other spec wise? The valve events are a bit different but they are all at similar ICA's and duration's. Where are the tighter LSA cams at? Going by Vizards formulas there's only 1 optimal LSA for a cams given overlap and duration. And only 1 overlap and duration thats optimal for best average power. That's mostly determined by the intake valve and bore size. With a 4.8 you should be on a 110 LSA and a 108 LAS for a 5.3. Then picking the duration's to suit the overlap and MAX RPM needs. Or so thats how I read it. (won't pretend to understand it) But his results and testing seem sound. And of course that's NA... But according to Richard that doesn't matter.
I'm actually glad that he tested similar cams (10 total)...it SHOULD end the badmouthing of the $200 Elgin (aka SS2), but surely won't.
The 3rd cam tested yesterday, was a Clay Smith, on a 110* LSA, but the SS2, and a few others, are at 112-113*.
Here's today's video, BOOST, but only of ONE cam...
The SUMMIT p.n. 8720... 218/227 600/600 112lsa....which made 415/370 in the NA test...
Same 4.8, VS Racing 78/75 turbo, 1500cc SnakeEater injectors
Tested at 9psi, 14.5psi, and 18psi of boost.
On The Tree
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 171
Likes: 9
What I don't get is the bastard won't stick with common themes and parts. How many stock 5.3;s and 4.8's does he have laying around! But he had to use the 4.8 with aftermarket pistons!? I'm all for a 4.8 and I'm glad he chose that motor personally, but common sense would tell me most use a 5.3 or even a 6.0. Also glad to see he is revving them out to 7k this time... But it's a destroked baby motor! Rev the freek'n thing till power falls off! It's clearly still pulling even with the "junky" truck manifold.
And why test 6 cams that are so close to each other spec wise? The valve events are a bit different but they are all at similar ICA's and duration's. Where are the tighter LSA cams at? Going by Vizards formulas there's only 1 optimal LSA for a cams given overlap and duration. And only 1 overlap and duration thats optimal for best average power. That's mostly determined by the intake valve and bore size. With a 4.8 you should be on a 110 LSA and a 108 LAS for a 5.3. Then picking the duration's to suit the overlap and MAX RPM needs. Or so thats how I read it. (won't pretend to understand it) But his results and testing seem sound. And of course that's NA... But according to Richard that doesn't matter.
I'm all for a 4.8 and I'm glad he chose that motor personally, but common sense would tell me most use a 5.3 or even a 6.0. Also glad to see he is revving them out to 7k this time... But it's a destroked baby motor! Rev the freek'n thing till power falls off! It's clearly still pulling even with the "junky" truck manifold.And why test 6 cams that are so close to each other spec wise? The valve events are a bit different but they are all at similar ICA's and duration's. Where are the tighter LSA cams at? Going by Vizards formulas there's only 1 optimal LSA for a cams given overlap and duration. And only 1 overlap and duration thats optimal for best average power. That's mostly determined by the intake valve and bore size. With a 4.8 you should be on a 110 LSA and a 108 LAS for a 5.3. Then picking the duration's to suit the overlap and MAX RPM needs. Or so thats how I read it. (won't pretend to understand it) But his results and testing seem sound. And of course that's NA... But according to Richard that doesn't matter.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 314
From: Baltimore County, MD.
The whole reason behind this test was that John at LJMS said that the ss2 was **** and that he had spintron data to prove that it fell off at higher rpm. Well come to find out he lied and had never spun the ss2 according to Brian Tooley himself the owner of the spintron. So to see if it actually was garbage they decide to test all of the big name stage 2 turbo cams (ones that would donate anyway) to see if indeed there was a big difference.
IE; no more LJMS cams listed on BTR website whatsoever.