427 block that will respond best to boost?
Staging Lane
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Originally Posted by BigD
I have had numerous conversations with the guy who casts/machines the C5R blocks. He and his operation are second to none, He is a first class guy. On the material take a look in a GMPP catalog, A356 T7 heat treated aluminum. Not what standard production blocks are made of.
Also the blocks aren't expensive from GM because it isn't mass produced (they make about 150-200 a year FWIW). It is because the block is entirely outsourced. Every one has to get his cut including GM which is passed onto the consumer.
Also the blocks aren't expensive from GM because it isn't mass produced (they make about 150-200 a year FWIW). It is because the block is entirely outsourced. Every one has to get his cut including GM which is passed onto the consumer.
Gee, as you know the guy, how about setting up a group purchase? You know, maybe around $2500?
MID blocks I am a co-inventor of the MID sleeves along with Dave who owns Darton and Gary who runs the shop. I am also Darton's block R&D and sleeve installation center for those that send blocks to them for sleeve installation. We have a patent pending on the MID sleeves. The US patent office has approved all of our claims. A patent should be forth coming hopefully by the end of this year.
The main reason neither GM or Ford for that matter use the MID block is because they did not invent it. I worked the Darton booth at PRI the last three years. Last year a GM guy came over and took a dozen photos of the block. Same thing with Ford and the Cobra block the year before.
Probably looking it over to see if they can circumvent our patent application in some way.
We looked at a C5R block during the design process for the LS1 MID sleeves. The C5R block indeed does have dry liners that protrude into the crankcase. We decided not to go with extended length sleeves for several reasons. One, the sleeves being unsupported at the bottom make them very difficult to hone to size in that area. There is not enough overstroke in these blocks to begin with. Two, most of the protruding sleeve has to be cut away for connecting rod and crankshaft counterweight clearance for the stroker assemblies. There is little skirt support area left after the sleeve is cut away. Three, Lingenfelter did some testing for us in the very beginning with longer sleeves. They insisted on shortening the sleeves to eliminate the hassle with crank and rod clearance. After considerable dyno testing working together we came up with a product that works.
The C5R block can be called a race block but is it really? Ever looked at a big or small block Chevy bow tie racing block a Ford SVO racing block any of the Dart or World Product racing blocks. These are racing blocks. They have priority main bearing oiling. Main bearings have a dedicated galley feeding them that can and is pressurized from the front and back by most builders. Main webbing is much thicker than a stock block on these blocks as well.
As I wrote before, the Darton sleeves are used by most top fuel and funny car teams. The same exact material is used on the LS1 or any sleeve Darton makes. Darton is also the sleeve supplier to Dart (not affiliated with Darton) for all of their racing blocks.
The LS1 MID project came well after other engines proved out the concept of machining out the cylinder wall and using replacable sleeves. The Honda was the first. A little B16A Honda engine using stock Honda block with MID sleeves, two bolt cast iron main caps will hold close to a thousand horsepower. That's 97 cubic inches making a thousand horsepower. We developed kits for the other Honda engine models then went on to other brands.
The Ecotec was a project Darton got from the late John Lingenfelter when he chose to run his Cavalier in the NHRA Sport Compact drag race series. John did considerable dyno testing on his engines which incidentally used stock GM Ecotec blocks. The result was close to fourteen hundred horsepower from two liters and the first sport compact in the sixes. The LS1 MID sleeve is an evolution of the Ecotec sleeve which was actually the first in the MID line.
Bottom line is stock production blocks are quite capable of being modified to extreme horsepower levels using the MID sleeves if they are correctly installed. Ultimate block strength is improved dramatically over the stock castings.
About head lifting. If you run into detonation the heads will lift on any engine. Even on a racing iron casting with high strength studs, thick racing heads and 116 octane race gas. If the heads didn't lift you would probably end up driving over your own crankshaft. To get any engine to live you must build and tune it to stay out of detonation.
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Site Sponsor
The main reason neither GM or Ford for that matter use the MID block is because they did not invent it. I worked the Darton booth at PRI the last three years. Last year a GM guy came over and took a dozen photos of the block. Same thing with Ford and the Cobra block the year before.
Probably looking it over to see if they can circumvent our patent application in some way.
We looked at a C5R block during the design process for the LS1 MID sleeves. The C5R block indeed does have dry liners that protrude into the crankcase. We decided not to go with extended length sleeves for several reasons. One, the sleeves being unsupported at the bottom make them very difficult to hone to size in that area. There is not enough overstroke in these blocks to begin with. Two, most of the protruding sleeve has to be cut away for connecting rod and crankshaft counterweight clearance for the stroker assemblies. There is little skirt support area left after the sleeve is cut away. Three, Lingenfelter did some testing for us in the very beginning with longer sleeves. They insisted on shortening the sleeves to eliminate the hassle with crank and rod clearance. After considerable dyno testing working together we came up with a product that works.
The C5R block can be called a race block but is it really? Ever looked at a big or small block Chevy bow tie racing block a Ford SVO racing block any of the Dart or World Product racing blocks. These are racing blocks. They have priority main bearing oiling. Main bearings have a dedicated galley feeding them that can and is pressurized from the front and back by most builders. Main webbing is much thicker than a stock block on these blocks as well.
As I wrote before, the Darton sleeves are used by most top fuel and funny car teams. The same exact material is used on the LS1 or any sleeve Darton makes. Darton is also the sleeve supplier to Dart (not affiliated with Darton) for all of their racing blocks.
The LS1 MID project came well after other engines proved out the concept of machining out the cylinder wall and using replacable sleeves. The Honda was the first. A little B16A Honda engine using stock Honda block with MID sleeves, two bolt cast iron main caps will hold close to a thousand horsepower. That's 97 cubic inches making a thousand horsepower. We developed kits for the other Honda engine models then went on to other brands.
The Ecotec was a project Darton got from the late John Lingenfelter when he chose to run his Cavalier in the NHRA Sport Compact drag race series. John did considerable dyno testing on his engines which incidentally used stock GM Ecotec blocks. The result was close to fourteen hundred horsepower from two liters and the first sport compact in the sixes. The LS1 MID sleeve is an evolution of the Ecotec sleeve which was actually the first in the MID line.
Bottom line is stock production blocks are quite capable of being modified to extreme horsepower levels using the MID sleeves if they are correctly installed. Ultimate block strength is improved dramatically over the stock castings.
About head lifting. If you run into detonation the heads will lift on any engine. Even on a racing iron casting with high strength studs, thick racing heads and 116 octane race gas. If the heads didn't lift you would probably end up driving over your own crankshaft. To get any engine to live you must build and tune it to stay out of detonation.
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Site Sponsor
Originally Posted by Swifster
Gee, as you know the guy, how about setting up a group purchase? You know, maybe around $2500?
Ahhhh............................................. ...............................NO
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Steve - Race Eng
I am a co-inventor of the MID sleeves along with Dave who owns Darton and Gary who runs the shop.
Bottom line is stock production blocks are quite capable of being modified to extreme horsepower levels using the MID sleeves if they are correctly installed. Ultimate block strength is improved dramatically over the stock castings.
About head lifting. If you run into detonation the heads will lift on any engine. Even on a racing iron casting with high strength studs, thick racing heads and 116 octane race gas. If the heads didn't lift you would probably end up driving over your own crankshaft. To get any engine to live you must build and tune it to stay out of detonation.
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Site Sponsor
Bottom line is stock production blocks are quite capable of being modified to extreme horsepower levels using the MID sleeves if they are correctly installed. Ultimate block strength is improved dramatically over the stock castings.
About head lifting. If you run into detonation the heads will lift on any engine. Even on a racing iron casting with high strength studs, thick racing heads and 116 octane race gas. If the heads didn't lift you would probably end up driving over your own crankshaft. To get any engine to live you must build and tune it to stay out of detonation.
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Site Sponsor
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