Some updated pics
I dont want an A2w cooler, hows that guys
Boostn...the ac was in the car but since my phamspeed bs going on i had to go another route, it will be put back though. I cant live with out
Boostn...the ac was in the car but since my phamspeed bs going on i had to go another route, it will be put back though. I cant live with out
Originally Posted by PurEvl
I dont want an A2w cooler, hows that guys
Boostn...the ac was in the car but since my phamspeed bs going on i had to go another route, it will be put back though. I cant live with out
Boostn...the ac was in the car but since my phamspeed bs going on i had to go another route, it will be put back though. I cant live with out
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Originally Posted by Slowhawk
I've tested both on the street.The A2W will heat up on hot day's/add alot more weight to the car ect. For a track car the A2W is the only way to go.Maybe I shouldn't of said useless, just less efficient than an A2A
This car will spend about 99% of it's time on the street.It just takes the right parts when it comes to a heat exchanger and water pump...
Even on the street w/o the aid of ice A2W can be much more efficient.
Whats a better cooling system... Air cooled VW or a liquid cooled LS1?
IMHO done right it beats a2a even on the street... The liquid side of alot of peoples systems needs some help...
Run a remote electic water pump... 3/4" ports
The best systems I have seen have included a boost triggered voltage regulator system similar to a kenne bell boost a pump for fuel pumps... honestly depending on pump amperage and controller capacity those may even work...
Yep magnacharger's magnavolt can kick out 20amps.. A racing water pump big enough would be around 10-12...
http://www.magnusonproducts.com/pr017.htm
This would vary water flow thru the system to match RPM and Boost... Slick sh&t.
For the heat exhanger the most effective I have seen that was still cheap was a aluminum radiator salvaged from a liquid cooled motorcycle...
Last edited by V8_DSM_V8again; Dec 14, 2005 at 09:03 AM.
SSU Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 4,857
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From: Austin, TX
Originally Posted by Slowhawk
I've tested both on the street.The A2W will heat up on hot day's/add alot more weight to the car ect. For a track car the A2W is the only way to go.Maybe I shouldn't of said useless, just less efficient than an A2A
This car will spend about 99% of it's time on the street.Bah...I was half kidding. Its not my car...do what you want. But thanks for the correction
9 Second Club
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 985
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From: Lake Orion, MI
John,
"...how teh hell is the water gonna be any cooler thent eh air comin outta the turbo?"
Have you ever actually seen a A2W setup on a car let alone a properly matched setup?
V8_DSM_V8again had some nice input on the key components in a well designed setup and what makes it work on the street. Like anything else it's about picking the parts for what you need to them to do. When done right, A2W will cover A2A more often than not since very few of us here road race.
Lets be realistic though, if someone still has room to run after 3-4 WOT blasts for 30-45 seconds on the freeway or hot lap 4 or 5 x 10 second passes on the street... then chances are their car needs to be faster.
Hawk and Evil are building a beautiful car the way the owner wants it. It has the true A2A advanatages of cost/weight.
Rick
"...how teh hell is the water gonna be any cooler thent eh air comin outta the turbo?"
Have you ever actually seen a A2W setup on a car let alone a properly matched setup?
V8_DSM_V8again had some nice input on the key components in a well designed setup and what makes it work on the street. Like anything else it's about picking the parts for what you need to them to do. When done right, A2W will cover A2A more often than not since very few of us here road race.
Lets be realistic though, if someone still has room to run after 3-4 WOT blasts for 30-45 seconds on the freeway or hot lap 4 or 5 x 10 second passes on the street... then chances are their car needs to be faster.
Hawk and Evil are building a beautiful car the way the owner wants it. It has the true A2A advanatages of cost/weight.
Rick
From Corky Bell's book, "Supercharged":
"When space permits an adequately sized air-to-air intercooler to be fitted and given access to decent airflow, it will always prove superior. The only excuse for a liquid-based (A2W) intercooler is when severe space restrictions exist or the vehicle is intended for drag racing or maximum-speed runs, where an iced coolant can be used..."
A2W suffers from trying to go through 2 heat transfer stages: Heat from the charge air to water, then heat from the water going through a radiator back to the air. A2A only has 1 heat transfer, from the charge air to the crossflow air. Unless you can ice your system, the coolest the A2W system will ever be is when you start the motor. After every boost the system is fighting to slowly head back towards, but will rarely reach (unless you don't boost again for a while), ambient temp.
Jim
"When space permits an adequately sized air-to-air intercooler to be fitted and given access to decent airflow, it will always prove superior. The only excuse for a liquid-based (A2W) intercooler is when severe space restrictions exist or the vehicle is intended for drag racing or maximum-speed runs, where an iced coolant can be used..."
A2W suffers from trying to go through 2 heat transfer stages: Heat from the charge air to water, then heat from the water going through a radiator back to the air. A2A only has 1 heat transfer, from the charge air to the crossflow air. Unless you can ice your system, the coolest the A2W system will ever be is when you start the motor. After every boost the system is fighting to slowly head back towards, but will rarely reach (unless you don't boost again for a while), ambient temp.
Jim
Originally Posted by DeltaT
From Corky Bell's book, "Supercharged":
"When space permits an adequately sized air-to-air intercooler to be fitted and given access to decent airflow, it will always prove superior. The only excuse for a liquid-based (A2W) intercooler is when severe space restrictions exist or the vehicle is intended for drag racing or maximum-speed runs, where an iced coolant can be used..."
A2W suffers from trying to go through 2 heat transfer stages: Heat from the charge air to water, then heat from the water going through a radiator back to the air. A2A only has 1 heat transfer, from the charge air to the crossflow air. Unless you can ice your system, the coolest the A2W system will ever be is when you start the motor. After every boost the system is fighting to slowly head back towards, but will rarely reach (unless you don't boost again for a while), ambient temp.
Jim
"When space permits an adequately sized air-to-air intercooler to be fitted and given access to decent airflow, it will always prove superior. The only excuse for a liquid-based (A2W) intercooler is when severe space restrictions exist or the vehicle is intended for drag racing or maximum-speed runs, where an iced coolant can be used..."
A2W suffers from trying to go through 2 heat transfer stages: Heat from the charge air to water, then heat from the water going through a radiator back to the air. A2A only has 1 heat transfer, from the charge air to the crossflow air. Unless you can ice your system, the coolest the A2W system will ever be is when you start the motor. After every boost the system is fighting to slowly head back towards, but will rarely reach (unless you don't boost again for a while), ambient temp.
Jim
water transfers heat much better then air, a good fan and pump will out perform an a2a, also a2a cooling is based upon air flow across it but a2w can cool while standing.
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10 Second Club
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,755
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From: Cincinnati, Ohio
Air to air = no worries. If someones messin' with you and you do a blast who knows how hot the water is unless it's monitored. If your baited into a second blast you've got to worry if the water is heated or not. Go for it and you might smoke the motor. Vortech uses A/W for installation convenience and tries to say they do it because it is superior. Not for the street it isn't. I smoked my first motor when I was new to this by hot lapping at the track. A big air/air does a great job with no worries and what it gives up is nominal. So IMHO if the car is biased towards the street vs track air/air is the way to go.
sometime people take corkeys book as the bible but it needs to be updated badly. Heck they tell you that you absoulty cannot use mild steel tubing as it serves no purpose in a turbo set up, then welcome to the next century when ceramic coatings allow corosion prevention, where these two are much more affordable then stainless.
water transfers heat much better then air, a good fan and pump will out perform an a2a, also a2a cooling is based upon air flow across it but a2w can cool while standing.
water transfers heat much better then air, a good fan and pump will out perform an a2a, also a2a cooling is based upon air flow across it but a2w can cool while standing.
I agree that water transfers heat much better than air, like 18 times better if I remember correctly.
An A2W can absorb heat while standing, but it cannot cool. It also needs airflow to cool the water via its mini-radiator. I guess you could put a fan on the mini-radiator, then it would cool when standing still. But when you are standing, you generally are not making any boost, except maybe during a burnout.
Add in less complexity and fewer components to break or break down, and A2A, when properly sized, is the clear winner for street and track use. Why don't you see any turbo road racing cars with A2W??? Because an A2W can not shed heat from its system fast enough to keep up with the car's needs.
Jim
Man, my car is really low and so I did all of my custom y-pipe off of my TQP's and exhaust to my SLP over the rearend myself and I thought I was sooooo cool. Where the hell did you learn how to do all of this stuff, looks really good. It must be a good feeling to almost be done with it keep us posted on how it runs. 
keep us posted on how it runs. 
Looks good don and PurEvl i know you guys have alot of hours and work into the car...and your holdup *Ahem* atm is a real PITA.But itll be worth it when its done and u turn the key and take that first drive.
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Originally Posted by DeltaT
I agree that water transfers heat much better than air, like 18 times better if I remember correctly.
An A2W can absorb heat while standing, but it cannot cool. It also needs airflow to cool the water via its mini-radiator. I guess you could put a fan on the mini-radiator, then it would cool when standing still. But when you are standing, you generally are not making any boost, except maybe during a burnout.
Add in less complexity and fewer components to break or break down, and A2A, when properly sized, is the clear winner for street and track use. Why don't you see any turbo road racing cars with A2W??? Because an A2W can not shed heat from its system fast enough to keep up with the car's needs.
Jim
I have one car with a A2A right now...
With A2W the mini radiators airflow placement is as critical as a A2A fmics placement..
Its not cheaper, its more complex.. Done right it can beat A2A across the board except in cost... It can reduce spool alot as you can avoid several feet of 2" plus diameter IC piping.. In the long term on the street it might beat it in cost.. For example, replacing a cracked up heat exchanger (mini rad) is alot cheaper than replacing a shattered spearco core..
Also in my off road application a FMIC would look and rattle like a sac of tin cans after the first week.
If you weight the pros and cons of both systems you see why they are both common place....
I have installed both.. I am convinced if its in the budget on A2W...
A2W, like a car's cooling system, is designed to shed heat and maintain a reasonable temperature above ambient.
A2A is designed to shed as much heat as is physically possible, and needs to be sized and positioned correctly and ensured good airflow.
As an example, if you boosted 5 pounds at a cruise for 100 miles, an A2W car would probably overheat its water supply, so it wasn't cooling anymore. It could not shed heat fast enough from 1 medium-sized cooler. Remember the same heat transfer advantage that water has in the A2W intercooler is reversed when it tries to shed heat from water to air.
But an A2A in the same car would behave exactly the same as it did when it started out.
Jim
A2A is designed to shed as much heat as is physically possible, and needs to be sized and positioned correctly and ensured good airflow.
As an example, if you boosted 5 pounds at a cruise for 100 miles, an A2W car would probably overheat its water supply, so it wasn't cooling anymore. It could not shed heat fast enough from 1 medium-sized cooler. Remember the same heat transfer advantage that water has in the A2W intercooler is reversed when it tries to shed heat from water to air.
But an A2A in the same car would behave exactly the same as it did when it started out.
Jim
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Originally Posted by DeltaT
A2W, like a car's cooling system, is designed to shed heat and maintain a reasonable temperature above ambient.
Cryo sprying not included..... You can cryo a A2W exchanger...too.....
Originally Posted by DeltaT
A2A is designed to shed as much heat as is physically possible, and needs to be sized and positioned correctly and ensured good airflow.
Originally Posted by DeltaT
As an example, if you boosted 5 pounds at a cruise for 100 miles, an A2W car would probably overheat its water supply, so it wasn't cooling anymore. It could not shed heat fast enough from 1 medium-sized cooler. Remember the same heat transfer advantage that water has in the A2W intercooler is reversed when it tries to shed heat from water to air.
But an A2A in the same car would behave exactly the same as it did when it started out.
Jim
But an A2A in the same car would behave exactly the same as it did when it started out.
Jim
An A2A large enough with ample airflow thru it would act the same just as you described .. However if it were too small and handicapped like the A2W you described it would heat soak just like my stock side mount A2A IC did..
The A2w needs much more area on its exchanger to exposed to ambiant air than in its intercooler to the compressed air... In the IC the air is alot hotter than the water so the heat transfers. At the exchanger it is'nt as wide a ratio in relation to the ambiant air temp. So to get as much heat to change states across the narrower differential you need more surface area..
Most of the A2W systems you see were never concieved for anything but drag racing.... Its not that it cant be designed or used for anything else but that people are'nt even trying it.. You need to treat the heat exchanger like a FMIC and not stick it like sideways in the corner or something.. It also must be large enough.. Things like a fan can help both a2a and a2w..
The water pumps people use are enough flow only to cycle the cool water availble stored thru the system.. Not enough to be able to cycle the full system capacity thru the exchanger fast enough to keep up.. Which is not to say it cant be done..
Last edited by V8_DSM_V8again; Dec 17, 2005 at 12:36 AM.
Originally Posted by V8_DSM_V8again
Ever see a A2A produce a temperature below ambiant?
Cryo sprying not included..... You can cryo a A2W exchanger...too.....
It does need to be sized and positioned properly. A A2W system can shed much more heat..
If properly sized it wont have that problem.. You need to enlarge the exchanger side to offset the effect.
An A2A large enough with ample airflow thru it would act the same just as you described .. However if it were too small and handicapped like the A2W you described it would heat soak just like my stock side mount A2A IC did..
The A2w needs much more area on its exchanger to exposed to ambiant air than in its intercooler to the compressed air... In the IC the air is alot hotter than the water so the heat transfers. At the exchanger it is'nt as wide a ratio in relation to the ambiant air temp. So to get as much heat to change states across the narrower differential you need more surface area..
Most of the A2W systems you see were never concieved for anything but drag racing.... Its not that it cant be designed or used for anything else but that people are'nt even trying it.. You need to treat the heat exchanger like a FMIC and not stick it like sideways in the corner or something.. It also must be large enough.. Things like a fan can help both a2a and a2w..
The water pumps people use are enough flow only to cycle the cool water availble stored thru the system.. Not enough to be able to cycle the full system capacity thru the exchanger fast enough to keep up.. Which is not to say it cant be done..
Cryo sprying not included..... You can cryo a A2W exchanger...too.....
It does need to be sized and positioned properly. A A2W system can shed much more heat..
If properly sized it wont have that problem.. You need to enlarge the exchanger side to offset the effect.
An A2A large enough with ample airflow thru it would act the same just as you described .. However if it were too small and handicapped like the A2W you described it would heat soak just like my stock side mount A2A IC did..
The A2w needs much more area on its exchanger to exposed to ambiant air than in its intercooler to the compressed air... In the IC the air is alot hotter than the water so the heat transfers. At the exchanger it is'nt as wide a ratio in relation to the ambiant air temp. So to get as much heat to change states across the narrower differential you need more surface area..
Most of the A2W systems you see were never concieved for anything but drag racing.... Its not that it cant be designed or used for anything else but that people are'nt even trying it.. You need to treat the heat exchanger like a FMIC and not stick it like sideways in the corner or something.. It also must be large enough.. Things like a fan can help both a2a and a2w..
The water pumps people use are enough flow only to cycle the cool water availble stored thru the system.. Not enough to be able to cycle the full system capacity thru the exchanger fast enough to keep up.. Which is not to say it cant be done..
please just stop already
