QuickSilver2002

I've had an SMC kit on my car for a while now.

The results are good, but I'm still trying to figure out if I have the right volume/mix going in.

I've pretty much run 40/60 denatured alky/water so far. I started with one of the smaller nozzles and still had some KR. I then put in the biggest nozzel (#9 I think). It seemed to help quite a bit (almost no KR now), but I'm still having to keep it pretty rich (11.7ish) and not running much timing (17). I'm trying to figure out if I should try a different mix or step up to a dual nozzle setup. The car never bogs or stumbles with the way it is setup right now. Although I have seen a misfire occasionally detected if I let off the throttle right when the spray turns on (about 3psi). I’m assuming the spark is getting blown out in this situation, but it never happens when I stay in it.

BTW, it’s an ATI running 8psi on a stock bottom end. I have a single front mounted intercooler and my IATs are not very high to begin with (although the outside air is real hot (98+) right now). I see IATs go from 98-104 on the dyno and a little more of rise on the strip.

Just interested to hear others setups, results, and thoughts are. Has anyone tired pure alky or pure water? What did you see? I'm assuming pure water helps fight detonation more, but robs more power also.

ChevyNo1

I'm interested in hearing results as well . . . I've had one on my car but haven't been able to tune it yet due to other issues . . . but I can't manage to make the car bog down or stumble either. I'm running a #7 right now . . . Steve @ SMC said he runs 100% denatured, I did an 80/20 alky/water mix.

- Dug

Blackbird

50/50 mix

for me it meant going from 14 degrees advance to 23 and picking up over 30rwhp and tq on a 6psi powerdyne.

in theory you should be able to run it leaner with the water/alky due to the octane properties so I am not sure why you can still only run 17 degrees advance with a 11.7 a/f. those seem like stock kit type tuning parameters.

I will be able to speak more on this as I bring my kit online. Looking for 8-10psi non intercooled, just water/alky.


for my buddy, 50/50 mix, went from 15 degrees advance to 21 on a overspun powerdyne producing 8-9psi

the water/alky kit is homemade on both cars.

I will not run over a 50/50 mix just because it is then a time bomb sitting in the trunk of the car in my case or under the hood in my buddy's case.

CHRISPY

Are you seeing 8#'s boost on your car?

Cheers,
Chris

S_J_H

I have tried quite a few things.
multiple nozzles,Straight methanol through the blower, straight water and lot's of mixes.
Denatured is harder to tune than methanol by a big margin IMO.
Best results with 50/50 water/methanol.Can add a splash of acetone if you want.

Running single 20.6 GPH nozzle at 140psi! My own system.
forged 346, Vortech NON intercooled. 14psi boost by 6100rpm. 2.5" pulley/8" crank.Spinning that sucker beyond 66,000rpm.
20 degrees timing.
Dual throttles-pre blower throttle along with the stock throttlebody.
In car wideband.
Gap the plugs at .028"
Temp changes make a large difference in the state of tune if I leave the alky system as is.
Will range from 10.7-11.7 A-F.
Have fun.
Steve

ChevyNo1

Steve, can you get methanol at a place like Home Depot just like denatured? How much per gallon?

- Dug

S_J_H

no, They don't sell it by me.
I just use HEAT gas line dryer that you can buy almost anywhere.
HEAT is 100% methanol. Don't get the ISO heat.
I have not found any place that carries it around here.

Blackbird

Sweeet! Always pushing the envelope of creativity and engineering. I love it.

Have you hit the track as of late with that bad boy? You were running extremely strong prior just on 10psi.

Curious as to how your doing.

S_J_H

Blackbird,
I am waiting for the air to cool down and then I will run it. I don't give a crap to be King of the hill or anything though. Not enough cash to keep up with the PSJ's out there.
But it's totally streetable and fun to romp on.
I also added a Mondo bypass valve.
I recently added a 2.5" pulley and it really threw off the tune. I have it dialed in now though.
I am taking the little g-trim vortech beyond it's efficiency range and the iat's show it.
Just cruising at 2500rpm IAT would go up to 160 in this weather. Just pumping way to much air at cruise.
The thing is pushing a lot of air in the motors midrange as it is very efficient in that range.
So I added the second throttle to limit air into the blower more inline with throttle angle. It also helps keep it from self destructing at the speeds I am pushing it. It was not to difficult because the Vortech aluminum ducting was used as the housing. It's a 80mm+ blade and I just welded a second cable tab to the gas pedal to operate the cable. Works wonderful and lowered IAT a good 15 degrees and completely takes the load off the compressor at cruise and after shutting down the throttle after a run. Don't even need a bypass anymore, but the mondo takes the load off part throttle so I'll keep it. I am using a 2.5" blower pulley and do not see any belt dust or signs of slippage. I even grooved and drilled the pulley ala Reichard racing, but it did nothing to help performance. Looks kind neat though,lol
I have taken it to 70,000rpm several times with no issue.
My old 3 nozzle alky system hit to slow. This thing pumps out 10psi+ as soon as I go wot at 4500rpm or under.
With no intercooler, I need the water/alky to hit NOW and no delay in flow will work.
So I went with a single nozzle, small cross section area plumbing and very high pressure to atomize well.
That's about it.
Steve

QuickSilver2002

What exactly do you mean by harder to tune? (causes detonation/bog/rich...)

What was the experience with pure water compared to pure alky?

What is this and where can you get it. Is it a brand? How is the methanol different than denatured...


Thanks.

MEAN LT1

iTrader: (2)

I look forward to seeing your kit when you bring it out. I have the smc kit on my car and like it. Alot of the Turbo Buick guys have used it and stil use it to this day. What do you mean Alky is harder to tune. I dont think its any harder to tune than any other mixure. Im running 100% denatured alky with some Marvel mystery oil and I havent run into any problems with bogging. I have a dual nozzle kit think this is best especially for atomazation.

S_J_H

denatured= ethanol.
Methanol is the preferred choice in racing for many reasons.
Ethanol runs at a much leaner(by volume) A-F mixture than methanol. Around 7-1 vs 4-1 with methanol for power.
Ethanol, which is 35% oxygen, contains 76,000 BTUs while methanol has 50% oxygen and 56,800 BTUs per gallon.
This means you can run quite a bit more methanol than ethanol(denatured)by volume.
At the same time, when using a 50/50 mix it allows more water also.
This gives a much better charge cooling effect because of the added volume of fluids and methanol is more tolerant of a rich mixture since it has such a high oxygen content.
Cons of methanol= It is VERY corrosive and attracts water like a sponge.
But tuning is easy with methanol as it is more tolerant of a over rich mixture.
Ethanol works fine and I used it for a while before settling on methanol.
I add about 40% of my total fuel volume as water/methanol.
I could add even more.But prefer to spike the gas a bit with toluene instead.
At 14psi with 85 ambients, I see about a 115-120peak boost charge temp.
Tried a couple runs with straight methanol through the impeller,IAT ran around 170 degrees and had a ton of knock.
Straight water works very good to stop knock, but kills off power.Just about cancels out any effect of the added timing you can run.
Oh, and HEAT is a brand, any brand of gas dryer that contains 100% methanol will do.Any and all auto parts stores should have it.
You can get the stuff on sale for $ .49 a 12oz bottle sometimes.
Steve

QuickSilver2002

Thanks for the info. I'm going to give Meth a try (in my car that is).

What about a lube? I got some Uplon fuel lube when I got the kit from SMC. It still seems to settle in the tank a bit and I'm not sure if it really does any good.

S_J_H

I am not sure about your SMC kit.
I use a shurflo diaphragm pump which does not need any lube.

QuickSilver2002

Some say the lube is for the top end of the motor. Not sure if I buy that.

InvisibleSun

How safe are these kits to use in terms of them misfiring or something going wrong? What would happen if it fails to fire? I am trying to figure out if I should do one of these kits or just use 100 Octane. What do you think the octane equivalent would be running the alky kit and using 91 octane? Thanks!

ChevyNo1

Steve @ SMC told me the Uplon was for the pump in the kit . . .

- Dug

InvisibleSun

ttt, please

QuickSilver2002

Is that flow rate adjusted for the pressure? I have a 9.49 GPH @ 40psi nozzle, which I probably run at 80psi. I roughly calculated that to be 13 GPH, but I'm not sure how much impact the positive pressure in the pipe has.

Wow! That is way more than I expected was required. How did you calculate that and is it at redline. I'm probably at 10% max (a total guess on my part).

I'm about to hook up a second boost activated nozzle and I'm trying to figure out how big it should be and at what PSI I should activate it.

Tell me if this calculation sounds right. I’m running injectors that flow about 375gm/min at 60psi. I figure that is about 2550 gm/min near full throttle. (375gm/min * 8 injectors) * .85 duty cycle on injectors at redline.

S_J_H

InvisibleSun ,
I can't speak for the reliability of other kits.My custom system is reliable. There is no reason it can't be as reliable as your fuel system if it is properly made and wired.
It really depends on the cylinder pressure and charge temps and timing as far as octane requirements.
For example,
My motor ran fine with 93 octane and about 15gph of alky water up to 10psi boost.
Once I upped it to 14psi with 10psi in by 4500rpm, It then needed 100 octane fuel AND 20gph water/alky to stop detonation in order to run a decent amount of ign advance.
Keep in mind I use no intercooler, so I need the system to bring charge temps down also.As it is now, 20gph flow keeps 14psi boost temps around 40 degrees over ambient in summer heat.
I have my pcm programmed to remove 10 degrees timing if IAT hits 160+ degrees. This is simple to do by using the IAT/Timing table in ls1edit. So if the system did not fire, IAT would skyrocket beyond 180degrees but timing would be dropped 10 degrees also.I have my Knock sensors set to pull up to 10 degrees also.

QuickSilver2002,
yes, just calculate your total fuel volume by injector duty cycle and flow.
I am running around 340lbs/hr fuel at peak boost/rpm which is 54 gal/hr if you figure 6.2lbs per gallon of gas.
So I flow about 37% at peak boost and more at lower rpms as the system is constant rate in flow.
I round it off to about 40% over my rev range.
I could use even more flow in the summer heat.
My nozzle flows 20+gph at 140psi. I simply flow test it and measure the volume in 15 seconds and convert that to gph for my own reference.That is just what it ended up needing to stop all knock.
My system is a bypass return style, similar to a normal efi fuel system.
By changing the bypass jet size, I adjust pressure and flow from the nozzle.
Give it the flow it needs, up to 50% is no problem.
There is a lot of tuning needed to the PE table to keep the A-F proper when you add a lot of alcohol though.So when you add more alky, you will need to reduce your PE multiplier also. I highly recomend a wideband for this and of course routine plug checks.
I could run around on 110+ octane all the time instead, But that is expensive and I would still not have the charge cooling effect of the water/alky.

Steve