Help with fuel pump controller.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Feb 2011
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I have restrictor because of Facet. Its for carb use originally and when carb needle valve closes its calms down like it should be in that use, when it have backpressure. If i let go all restriction, pump just goes all the time its maximum capasity. It cannot be long living pump that way.
Yes, its a lift pump. I use term vacuum pump, because pressure pumps cannot vacuum.
From reg to rails its about 3 meters, reg is just about rearaxle line. Fuel line is all the way -6AN.
Im aware the capasity of Facet, but i think this way:
I daily drive this car and its been fine with stock 305hp LS1. Even if i drive this car WOT with my new 450hp engine, lets say one minute which will never happend. I think Facet + 2 litre collectortank (or how you wanna call it) it wont let walbro without fuel in that time. Sure it will fill up when i let go gas pedal.
Can you put some links what you recommed for lift/vacuum pumps?
Yes, its a lift pump. I use term vacuum pump, because pressure pumps cannot vacuum.
From reg to rails its about 3 meters, reg is just about rearaxle line. Fuel line is all the way -6AN.
Im aware the capasity of Facet, but i think this way:
I daily drive this car and its been fine with stock 305hp LS1. Even if i drive this car WOT with my new 450hp engine, lets say one minute which will never happend. I think Facet + 2 litre collectortank (or how you wanna call it) it wont let walbro without fuel in that time. Sure it will fill up when i let go gas pedal.
Can you put some links what you recommed for lift/vacuum pumps?
9 Second Club
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From: Norn Iron
There is no need for a restrictor, but it is also not the cause of any problems.
This would be a more suitable pump ( there are versions with higher capacity if needed but you get the idea )
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carter-P4594-Electric-Fuel-Pump-/400860821787?hash=item5d552ab91b&vxp=mtr
Such a long run post regulator is generally not a great idea. What fuel pressure are you running ?
Although with a -6 line and low power output it should be ok.
And there is no need for a controller in such a simple system.
This would be a more suitable pump ( there are versions with higher capacity if needed but you get the idea )
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carter-P4594-Electric-Fuel-Pump-/400860821787?hash=item5d552ab91b&vxp=mtr
Such a long run post regulator is generally not a great idea. What fuel pressure are you running ?
Although with a -6 line and low power output it should be ok.
And there is no need for a controller in such a simple system.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
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I have done once same kind of system in my racecar and it worked fine for years. It was with bosch 044 pump. In a racecar i dont mind the noice, only reliability.
In this case, the fuel pump noise is the problem. I might try to remove the restrictor and see what it does with walbro noise versus facet overspeed.
Im planing also gauge to fuelrail. No idea of my fuelpressure really. It is just what corvette regulator does now. All i can say its been on a rich side mixture gaugeing with my with my wideband nose.
In this case, the fuel pump noise is the problem. I might try to remove the restrictor and see what it does with walbro noise versus facet overspeed.
Im planing also gauge to fuelrail. No idea of my fuelpressure really. It is just what corvette regulator does now. All i can say its been on a rich side mixture gaugeing with my with my wideband nose.
9 Second Club
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From: Norn Iron
There is nothing new about the setup, although it is always preferable to run the regulator close to the rails.
I would also prefer to have a setup where the lift pump flow always exceeds the main pump, and then run the reg return back to main tank.
Although in your case as the reg isnt mounted after the rails there should be almost no hot fuel getting pumped back into the swirl tank, so that's no big deal really.
Most people return from reg to swirl tank because of an inadequate lift pump being used.
I would also prefer to have a setup where the lift pump flow always exceeds the main pump, and then run the reg return back to main tank.
Although in your case as the reg isnt mounted after the rails there should be almost no hot fuel getting pumped back into the swirl tank, so that's no big deal really.
Most people return from reg to swirl tank because of an inadequate lift pump being used.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
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Since my real problem is noise and i try to solve it with the pumpcontroller. I really like to know how people end up solving the noise problems, or are they just letting go, when they cant figure it out? Pump noise seem to be not so rare problem and there seem to be no easy answer to it.
This is not my pump, but it sounds exactly like this.
This is not my pump, but it sounds exactly like this.
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
On The Tree
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These are just my thoughts, but im thinking so many people who will have noisy pump, because somewhere in fuelsystem is too much, or too little flow or capasity for pump what it needs to be silent.. Some kind of small cavitation is happening inlet or ex side of the pump.
It is really laborious to figure it out what the problem is and every pump and setup is different when you build your fuel system from beginning. Thats why there is no easy answer to it.
Its got nothing to do with reliability of a system but the noise, just drives crazy.
It is really laborious to figure it out what the problem is and every pump and setup is different when you build your fuel system from beginning. Thats why there is no easy answer to it.
Its got nothing to do with reliability of a system but the noise, just drives crazy.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
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Funny thing is also that my system has been perfectly good for stock LS1 engine when i put 9,5V. to fuelpump. It is very silent and it can flow enough fuel for stock engine. Driven now about 3000 miles.
Pump Cavitation The items that SteveTurbo states are WELL founded.
I manufacturer fuel pumps, many which have the pump armature encased in resin. (smooth)
NOW for OHM's law, when supply voltage is lowered armature CURRENT could raise an equal amount.
This may not be good for the pump brushes AND will heat the armature causing hotter fuel.
NEXT, MOST pump motors do NOT respond to a PWM current supply strategy.
The best way is to "scope" the pump in operation on a test bench and look for the EMF report.
Your problem, a noisy pump, is commonly caused by an inlet restriction as stated by SteveT.
One test is to inspect the fuel pump outlet line for bubbles, the result of cavitation.
Then remember this is the fuel style you feed your fuel injectors.
The next problem is a "dead head" fuel system seen in many new cars.
This allows for HOT fuel full of air in many cases.
Use a regulator as Steve stated at the end of the fuel rail with return to the tank.
Your fuel will be COOL allowing better engine operation at high power.
Lance
I manufacturer fuel pumps, many which have the pump armature encased in resin. (smooth)
NOW for OHM's law, when supply voltage is lowered armature CURRENT could raise an equal amount.
This may not be good for the pump brushes AND will heat the armature causing hotter fuel.
NEXT, MOST pump motors do NOT respond to a PWM current supply strategy.
The best way is to "scope" the pump in operation on a test bench and look for the EMF report.
Your problem, a noisy pump, is commonly caused by an inlet restriction as stated by SteveT.
One test is to inspect the fuel pump outlet line for bubbles, the result of cavitation.
Then remember this is the fuel style you feed your fuel injectors.
The next problem is a "dead head" fuel system seen in many new cars.
This allows for HOT fuel full of air in many cases.
Use a regulator as Steve stated at the end of the fuel rail with return to the tank.
Your fuel will be COOL allowing better engine operation at high power.
Lance
Thread Starter
On The Tree
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Thanks Lance for joining this.
My engine is 1999 LS1, so it doesnt have return line. I really wonder why GM change the earlier style return line rails like this. I know with returline it would be better. For now, i have to live with it.
I have thougt my inlet restriction too. My distance from collectortank to pump is less that one feet and line is -an6. Level with bottom of the tank. Only restriction what could be is i use banjo joint in tank outlet. Can it be my restriction here?
Im thinking too that regular PWM cannot be spot on for every pump and set up.
With Easyperformance PWM might be better success because it is adjustable.
You can adjust signal and idle and wot behavior of PWM.
My engine is 1999 LS1, so it doesnt have return line. I really wonder why GM change the earlier style return line rails like this. I know with returline it would be better. For now, i have to live with it.
I have thougt my inlet restriction too. My distance from collectortank to pump is less that one feet and line is -an6. Level with bottom of the tank. Only restriction what could be is i use banjo joint in tank outlet. Can it be my restriction here?
Im thinking too that regular PWM cannot be spot on for every pump and set up.
With Easyperformance PWM might be better success because it is adjustable.
You can adjust signal and idle and wot behavior of PWM.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Feb 2011
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I just realize that Carter and Facet are totally different pumps how they work. Facet is interupt pump and Carter is rotary vane type pump. Is that Carter P4594 what people are using or are there more flowing units there? With Carter i can shoot off that 3mm returnline restrictor too.
9 Second Club
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From: Norn Iron
Carter/FM make quite a few pumps of similar design with different flow rates.
That one was first one that appeared on egay and seems to be a lower flowing item.
I just wouldnt use the Facet as I dont like them.
Some use the Holley red/blue type pumps I think as well
That one was first one that appeared on egay and seems to be a lower flowing item.
I just wouldnt use the Facet as I dont like them.
Some use the Holley red/blue type pumps I think as well
Thread Starter
On The Tree
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Oh man, this is getting hard. . . .
Fueling is not my only problem now. Im in a middle of engine build, trans build and im fairly new to LS engines and autotrans, so im feeling i have no time to suck all information what i need in a short period of time to do things right again. This is my hobby, but feeling now i took a very big bite when i have to be finnished in a month or so.
Thank you very much for helping me out this. I really like to do this the way i dont have to worry about it again.
I think i dont need never more pump than walbro 255, so how big vane pump is big enough in my purpose? 255 converts to 67 gallons so i presume carter P4594 have volume enough with 72gph?
Fueling is not my only problem now. Im in a middle of engine build, trans build and im fairly new to LS engines and autotrans, so im feeling i have no time to suck all information what i need in a short period of time to do things right again. This is my hobby, but feeling now i took a very big bite when i have to be finnished in a month or so.
Thank you very much for helping me out this. I really like to do this the way i dont have to worry about it again.
I think i dont need never more pump than walbro 255, so how big vane pump is big enough in my purpose? 255 converts to 67 gallons so i presume carter P4594 have volume enough with 72gph?
9 Second Club
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From: Norn Iron
Yes the 255 will supply all the fuel your engine will need, presuming fuel system layout is sensible.
And Yes I'd be happy running the 72gph pump as a lift pump.
Now as your car sounds like it is in pieces, I would upgrade the system as Lance says and mount an FPR up front local to the rails and plumb a proper flow/return system.
And Yes I'd be happy running the 72gph pump as a lift pump.
Now as your car sounds like it is in pieces, I would upgrade the system as Lance says and mount an FPR up front local to the rails and plumb a proper flow/return system.