E-85 conversion
There are some technologies being experimented with to make ethanol production cheaper, but as it stands ethanol requires more energy to produce than what it returns. Doesn't sound like a renewable resource yet to me. The only reason to use E-85 at the current time is in an FI application where you need the extra octane rating. Perhaps in the future if some of the currently experimental technology pans out, E-85 might be a viable alternative fuel. Until then, it's just another excuse to keep subsidizing farms with tax money.
Staging Lane
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Ethanol has a few properties that need to be looked at.
Ethanol is refined from sugar, corn, grain etc. Gasoline is refined from oil. Nothing surprising here.
Ethanol doesn't have ANY lubricating properties. Gasoline, being refined from oil does. That is why our fuel pumps, fuel injectors and any moving parts coming in contact only with gasoline don't need extra lubricants added. Gasoline lubricates these parts for us. Ethanol in pure form does NOT.
Ethanol absorbs up to 40 times more water than gasoline. Water in our fuel is bad for a few reasons. It can freeze. Since ethanol doesn't freeze, thats ok. Water is corrosive to steel parts. There are many steel parts coming in contact with our fuel, so this is not good.
Ethanol is considered a detergent. It dissolves and cleans out lots of contaminants that can build up in a gasoline engine's fuel system. It will also "dry" out rubber seals.
Those are some differences that we need to know about.
To convert a pure gasoline system to run on E85 you need to look at these properties and apply them.
Gasoline makes up for 15% of E85. This takes care of lubricating moving parts. Rubber is going to be under attack with this high of a concentration of ethanol. Using Neoprene instead of rubber will work.
As for water absorbtion, it just depends on the way it is transported and stored. Not much we can do about that. Steel parts in the fuel system would do well to be converted to aluminum or stainless steel.
Ethanol's detergent properties will dislodge buildup's in a gasoline fuel system and will cause the fuel filter to become clogged more quickly. Solution: Replace fuel filter more often.
I have heard some dealers reccomending more frequent oil changes because of ethanol's ability to break down engine oil and reduce its lubricant properties. I would get oil analyzed and see how it is affecting it. If it is a problem, then change oil more frequently.
The 15% ethanol included in our normal pump gas isn't concentrated highly enough to cause any problems.
If you want to convert your car to run E85, it is possible. I don't think it is cost effective yet because of ethanol's scarcity and price. Maybe in a few years it will be worth it but I woudl just buy a E85 vechile then.
Ethanol is refined from sugar, corn, grain etc. Gasoline is refined from oil. Nothing surprising here.
Ethanol doesn't have ANY lubricating properties. Gasoline, being refined from oil does. That is why our fuel pumps, fuel injectors and any moving parts coming in contact only with gasoline don't need extra lubricants added. Gasoline lubricates these parts for us. Ethanol in pure form does NOT.
Ethanol absorbs up to 40 times more water than gasoline. Water in our fuel is bad for a few reasons. It can freeze. Since ethanol doesn't freeze, thats ok. Water is corrosive to steel parts. There are many steel parts coming in contact with our fuel, so this is not good.
Ethanol is considered a detergent. It dissolves and cleans out lots of contaminants that can build up in a gasoline engine's fuel system. It will also "dry" out rubber seals.
Those are some differences that we need to know about.
To convert a pure gasoline system to run on E85 you need to look at these properties and apply them.
Gasoline makes up for 15% of E85. This takes care of lubricating moving parts. Rubber is going to be under attack with this high of a concentration of ethanol. Using Neoprene instead of rubber will work.
As for water absorbtion, it just depends on the way it is transported and stored. Not much we can do about that. Steel parts in the fuel system would do well to be converted to aluminum or stainless steel.
Ethanol's detergent properties will dislodge buildup's in a gasoline fuel system and will cause the fuel filter to become clogged more quickly. Solution: Replace fuel filter more often.
I have heard some dealers reccomending more frequent oil changes because of ethanol's ability to break down engine oil and reduce its lubricant properties. I would get oil analyzed and see how it is affecting it. If it is a problem, then change oil more frequently.
The 15% ethanol included in our normal pump gas isn't concentrated highly enough to cause any problems.
If you want to convert your car to run E85, it is possible. I don't think it is cost effective yet because of ethanol's scarcity and price. Maybe in a few years it will be worth it but I woudl just buy a E85 vechile then.
Has anybody heard of Acetone as a fuel additive??? It raises octane rating and improves gas mileage.........
Here's the linky that says so......
http://www.lubedev.com/smartgas/additive.htm
Here's the linky that says so......
http://www.lubedev.com/smartgas/additive.htm
i've seen a few ls1 fbodies with extreme fuel system damage just from running 10% ethanol,i can't imagine what 85 would do.the biggest problem in the fbodies is the returnless fuel system.it causes all the water to collect in the fuel rail.it can't get through the injectors so it sits in there eatting its way through the rail.i have a fine example of a fbody fuel rail with holes eatten through it because 10% ethanol was used at every fill up.also ate all the steel fuel lines.i never fill up without adding lucas to the fuel.one other thing to consider is ethanol is an oxygen carrying fuel,gasoline is not.this means that it soaks up water like a spronge,also means it can rust-corrode anything it comes in contact with.gasoline carries no ox or o2 so it does nothing when water is added to it.it stays seperated and little damage accurs.adding water to ethanol(all gas station fuel tanks have plenty of water from condensation in them)causes the ethanol to become super destroyer.it has the very things you need to eat steel,rubber etc.NASTY!
try this little experiment,take some ethyl alcohol mixed with water then put it in a bare steel container for a month.try the same thing with plain gasoline.see for yourself if it damages anything.
another thing ethanol can do is absorb moisture from the air,so it only has to be humid for it to get plenty of moisture .i think it complete insanity to consider even 10% ethanol safe for our cars.even cars made to run e fuels need constant maintainance.
by the way the fuel rails in our cars are bare steel,so are the fuel lines.can you say lunch?
try this little experiment,take some ethyl alcohol mixed with water then put it in a bare steel container for a month.try the same thing with plain gasoline.see for yourself if it damages anything.
another thing ethanol can do is absorb moisture from the air,so it only has to be humid for it to get plenty of moisture .i think it complete insanity to consider even 10% ethanol safe for our cars.even cars made to run e fuels need constant maintainance.
by the way the fuel rails in our cars are bare steel,so are the fuel lines.can you say lunch?
Last edited by YoMommasTA; Apr 21, 2006 at 11:02 PM.
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TECH Resident
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 862
Likes: 0
From: Twin Cities
I've run E85 since 2003 and love it. You can optimize your tune to take advantage of the higher octane something the factory hasn't done.
Look at it this way if we don't find a way to make Bio Diesel and E85 work we will all be driving HyBrid's or riding bikes. China and India will be sucking up more and more fuel as there economys grow, there is no way around it.
THE PRO'S
How Can We Benefit?
Using E85 reduces our petroleum consumption. By replacing 85% of the fuel with renewable material, our consumption of petroleum, much of which is imported, drops significantly.
E85 is better for the environment, both from an air quality and a toxicity standpoint. E85 contains much more oxygen than gasoline, and burns cleaner. It reduces tailpipe emissions when used. It also is much less toxic to the environment if and when spilled.
Because of the small percentage of actual petroleum, the price of E85 will be much less dependent on fragile oil refining processes and politics bring variability and uncertainty to the price of gasoline.
E85 will support farmers in a big way: it's a known consumer of the byproducts of corn they already grow and refine. E85 simply takes the byproduct and makes it work for us, instead of turning into waste. So you can give your $ to the Arabs or a farmer. Producing oil isn't going to add jobs using E85 will.
FACTS
Pure ethanol differs from conventional gasoline in that it has a constant boiling point temperature, higher octane, lower energy density, and requires more heat for vaporization. Blends containing 85% ethanol by volume have a higher octane value than regular gasoline, but because of the lower energy density of ethanol, an E85 blend contains only about 69 - 74% of the energy of regular gasoline on a Btu/gallon basis. This means that a 35% increase in the capacity of the fuel handling infrastructure (delivery tanks and carriers) would be needed for E85 systems to enable the same level of mobility (total vehicle miles of travel) as that provided by the current gasoline distribution system
E85 does have corrosive properties and does require a fuel system sensitive to those properties.
YoMommasTA I don't agree with much of what you posted. But your right about water absorbtion. If you don't ever fill up and just add 10 gallons at a time condensation can develop in the tank. This is minimized by a returnless fuel system and being that its approved for use by every major automaker in the world (E-10 Unleaded) it leads me to belive your fuel rails had other issues not E-10 related. Water in the tank can cause ethanol to separate into the water phase, resulting in either water being introduced into the engine fuel system or the octane content of the gas being reduced below engine driving requirements. Both of these conditions may cause poor performance or engine stalling. So keep water out of your tank! By keeping the cap on and it properly vented. Ethanol can re-dissolve scale or sludge in the tank and potentially carry it into the vehicle fuel system, clogging fuel lines and filters.
gametech In June 2004, the U.S. Department of Agriculture updated its 2002 analysis of the issue and determined that the net energy balance of ethanol production is 1.67 to 1. For every 100 BTUs of energy used to make ethanol, 167 BTUs of ethanol is produced. In 2002, USDA had concluded that the ratio was 1.35 to 1. The USDA findings have been confirmed by additional studies conducted by the University of Nebraska and Argonne National Laboratory.
(Note Biomass Ethanol has a ratio of 2.62 because it uses stitch grass and fast growing trees/weeds.)
These figures take into account the energy required to plant, grow and harvest the corn—as well as the energy required to manufacture and distribute the ethanol.
The net energy balance of ethanol production continues to improve because ethanol production is becoming more efficient. For example, one bushel of corn now yields 2.8 gallons of ethanol—up from 2.5 gallons just a few years ago.
People also forget to factor in the economic benifits of planting, harvesting, local storage and transportation ect..
IMHO the only reason E-10 was so easily adopted by the oil industry is that they didn't have better alternitive to replace MTBE (a replacement for lead as an octane booster) which is being phased out because of enviormental & health concerns. And its cheaper that MTBE
Buy American! Go E85
Pro Stock John From USA Today
In 2005, the U.S. produced 3.9 billion gallons of fuel ethanol and imported 109 million gallons, almost all from Brazil. By expanding purchases of Brazilian ethanol, the USA could curb what President Bush has labeled its oil addiction. But the U.S. imposes a 54-cent-a-gallon tariff to discourage imports and protect domestic farmers. American ethanol is produced from corn, which costs more and produces less energy per unit of input than sugar cane.
Look at it this way if we don't find a way to make Bio Diesel and E85 work we will all be driving HyBrid's or riding bikes. China and India will be sucking up more and more fuel as there economys grow, there is no way around it.
THE PRO'S
How Can We Benefit?
Using E85 reduces our petroleum consumption. By replacing 85% of the fuel with renewable material, our consumption of petroleum, much of which is imported, drops significantly.
E85 is better for the environment, both from an air quality and a toxicity standpoint. E85 contains much more oxygen than gasoline, and burns cleaner. It reduces tailpipe emissions when used. It also is much less toxic to the environment if and when spilled.
Because of the small percentage of actual petroleum, the price of E85 will be much less dependent on fragile oil refining processes and politics bring variability and uncertainty to the price of gasoline.
E85 will support farmers in a big way: it's a known consumer of the byproducts of corn they already grow and refine. E85 simply takes the byproduct and makes it work for us, instead of turning into waste. So you can give your $ to the Arabs or a farmer. Producing oil isn't going to add jobs using E85 will.
FACTS
Pure ethanol differs from conventional gasoline in that it has a constant boiling point temperature, higher octane, lower energy density, and requires more heat for vaporization. Blends containing 85% ethanol by volume have a higher octane value than regular gasoline, but because of the lower energy density of ethanol, an E85 blend contains only about 69 - 74% of the energy of regular gasoline on a Btu/gallon basis. This means that a 35% increase in the capacity of the fuel handling infrastructure (delivery tanks and carriers) would be needed for E85 systems to enable the same level of mobility (total vehicle miles of travel) as that provided by the current gasoline distribution system
E85 does have corrosive properties and does require a fuel system sensitive to those properties.
YoMommasTA I don't agree with much of what you posted. But your right about water absorbtion. If you don't ever fill up and just add 10 gallons at a time condensation can develop in the tank. This is minimized by a returnless fuel system and being that its approved for use by every major automaker in the world (E-10 Unleaded) it leads me to belive your fuel rails had other issues not E-10 related. Water in the tank can cause ethanol to separate into the water phase, resulting in either water being introduced into the engine fuel system or the octane content of the gas being reduced below engine driving requirements. Both of these conditions may cause poor performance or engine stalling. So keep water out of your tank! By keeping the cap on and it properly vented. Ethanol can re-dissolve scale or sludge in the tank and potentially carry it into the vehicle fuel system, clogging fuel lines and filters.
gametech In June 2004, the U.S. Department of Agriculture updated its 2002 analysis of the issue and determined that the net energy balance of ethanol production is 1.67 to 1. For every 100 BTUs of energy used to make ethanol, 167 BTUs of ethanol is produced. In 2002, USDA had concluded that the ratio was 1.35 to 1. The USDA findings have been confirmed by additional studies conducted by the University of Nebraska and Argonne National Laboratory.
(Note Biomass Ethanol has a ratio of 2.62 because it uses stitch grass and fast growing trees/weeds.)
These figures take into account the energy required to plant, grow and harvest the corn—as well as the energy required to manufacture and distribute the ethanol.
The net energy balance of ethanol production continues to improve because ethanol production is becoming more efficient. For example, one bushel of corn now yields 2.8 gallons of ethanol—up from 2.5 gallons just a few years ago.
People also forget to factor in the economic benifits of planting, harvesting, local storage and transportation ect..
IMHO the only reason E-10 was so easily adopted by the oil industry is that they didn't have better alternitive to replace MTBE (a replacement for lead as an octane booster) which is being phased out because of enviormental & health concerns. And its cheaper that MTBE
Buy American! Go E85
Pro Stock John
Ethanol is subsidized here since we imported 10 times what we made in the US last year.
In 2005, the U.S. produced 3.9 billion gallons of fuel ethanol and imported 109 million gallons, almost all from Brazil. By expanding purchases of Brazilian ethanol, the USA could curb what President Bush has labeled its oil addiction. But the U.S. imposes a 54-cent-a-gallon tariff to discourage imports and protect domestic farmers. American ethanol is produced from corn, which costs more and produces less energy per unit of input than sugar cane.
The flap over Cargill’s plan to import 63 million gallons of Brazilian ethanol into the 3 billion gallon a year market continues to escalate. (Earlier post here.)
Senator Daschle has fired off a letter stating his intention to introduce legislation that would preclude imported ethanol from qualifying underneath his proposed Renewable Fuels Standard (RFS).
The key to the next growth spurt in the domestic ethanol industry is bipartisan legislation I wrote with Sen. Dick Lugar (R-IN) that would encourage investment in new plants and expand a market for corn that farmers can count on through mandatory annual production targets created by a renewable fuels standard. Plans to import ethanol inject an element of market uncertainty into the RFS discussion that could dampen investment in community-sized ethanol facilities and compromise the RFS’s potential for farmers.
The RFS program is designed to stimulate domestic production and enhance US energy security, not to create a market opportunity for foreign ethanol. Cargill accountants should not count on the new demand created by the renewable fuels standard to justify any scheme to import ethanol. Therefore, I am leading a group that includes two Republicans, Senator Lugar and Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE), and Senator Ben Nelson (D-NE) in introducing legislation to ensure that only domestically produced ethanol would qualify for eligibility under the RFS.
Senator Daschle has fired off a letter stating his intention to introduce legislation that would preclude imported ethanol from qualifying underneath his proposed Renewable Fuels Standard (RFS).
The key to the next growth spurt in the domestic ethanol industry is bipartisan legislation I wrote with Sen. Dick Lugar (R-IN) that would encourage investment in new plants and expand a market for corn that farmers can count on through mandatory annual production targets created by a renewable fuels standard. Plans to import ethanol inject an element of market uncertainty into the RFS discussion that could dampen investment in community-sized ethanol facilities and compromise the RFS’s potential for farmers.
The RFS program is designed to stimulate domestic production and enhance US energy security, not to create a market opportunity for foreign ethanol. Cargill accountants should not count on the new demand created by the renewable fuels standard to justify any scheme to import ethanol. Therefore, I am leading a group that includes two Republicans, Senator Lugar and Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE), and Senator Ben Nelson (D-NE) in introducing legislation to ensure that only domestically produced ethanol would qualify for eligibility under the RFS.
Originally Posted by MNC5
I've run E85 since 2003 and love it. You can optimize your tune to take advantage of the higher octane something the factory hasn't done.
Look at it this way if we don't find a way to make Bio Diesel and E85 work we will all be driving HyBrid's or riding bikes. China and India will be sucking up more and more fuel as there economys grow, there is no way around it.
THE PRO'S
How Can We Benefit?
Using E85 reduces our petroleum consumption. By replacing 85% of the fuel with renewable material, our consumption of petroleum, much of which is imported, drops significantly.
E85 is better for the environment, both from an air quality and a toxicity standpoint. E85 contains much more oxygen than gasoline, and burns cleaner. It reduces tailpipe emissions when used. It also is much less toxic to the environment if and when spilled.
Because of the small percentage of actual petroleum, the price of E85 will be much less dependent on fragile oil refining processes and politics bring variability and uncertainty to the price of gasoline.
E85 will support farmers in a big way: it's a known consumer of the byproducts of corn they already grow and refine. E85 simply takes the byproduct and makes it work for us, instead of turning into waste. So you can give your $ to the Arabs or a farmer. Producing oil isn't going to add jobs using E85 will.
FACTS
Pure ethanol differs from conventional gasoline in that it has a constant boiling point temperature, higher octane, lower energy density, and requires more heat for vaporization. Blends containing 85% ethanol by volume have a higher octane value than regular gasoline, but because of the lower energy density of ethanol, an E85 blend contains only about 69 - 74% of the energy of regular gasoline on a Btu/gallon basis. This means that a 35% increase in the capacity of the fuel handling infrastructure (delivery tanks and carriers) would be needed for E85 systems to enable the same level of mobility (total vehicle miles of travel) as that provided by the current gasoline distribution system
E85 does have corrosive properties and does require a fuel system sensitive to those properties.
YoMommasTA I don't agree with much of what you posted. But your right about water absorbtion. If you don't ever fill up and just add 10 gallons at a time condensation can develop in the tank. This is minimized by a returnless fuel system and being that its approved for use by every major automaker in the world (E-10 Unleaded) it leads me to belive your fuel rails had other issues not E-10 related. Water in the tank can cause ethanol to separate into the water phase, resulting in either water being introduced into the engine fuel system or the octane content of the gas being reduced below engine driving requirements. Both of these conditions may cause poor performance or engine stalling. So keep water out of your tank! By keeping the cap on and it properly vented. Ethanol can re-dissolve scale or sludge in the tank and potentially carry it into the vehicle fuel system, clogging fuel lines and filters.
gametech In June 2004, the U.S. Department of Agriculture updated its 2002 analysis of the issue and determined that the net energy balance of ethanol production is 1.67 to 1. For every 100 BTUs of energy used to make ethanol, 167 BTUs of ethanol is produced. In 2002, USDA had concluded that the ratio was 1.35 to 1. The USDA findings have been confirmed by additional studies conducted by the University of Nebraska and Argonne National Laboratory.
(Note Biomass Ethanol has a ratio of 2.62 because it uses stitch grass and fast growing trees/weeds.)
These figures take into account the energy required to plant, grow and harvest the corn—as well as the energy required to manufacture and distribute the ethanol.
The net energy balance of ethanol production continues to improve because ethanol production is becoming more efficient. For example, one bushel of corn now yields 2.8 gallons of ethanol—up from 2.5 gallons just a few years ago.
People also forget to factor in the economic benifits of planting, harvesting, local storage and transportation ect..
IMHO the only reason E-10 was so easily adopted by the oil industry is that they didn't have better alternitive to replace MTBE (a replacement for lead as an octane booster) which is being phased out because of enviormental & health concerns. And its cheaper that MTBE
Buy American! Go E85
Pro Stock John
From USA Today
In 2005, the U.S. produced 3.9 billion gallons of fuel ethanol and imported 109 million gallons, almost all from Brazil. By expanding purchases of Brazilian ethanol, the USA could curb what President Bush has labeled its oil addiction. But the U.S. imposes a 54-cent-a-gallon tariff to discourage imports and protect domestic farmers. American ethanol is produced from corn, which costs more and produces less energy per unit of input than sugar cane.
Look at it this way if we don't find a way to make Bio Diesel and E85 work we will all be driving HyBrid's or riding bikes. China and India will be sucking up more and more fuel as there economys grow, there is no way around it.
THE PRO'S
How Can We Benefit?
Using E85 reduces our petroleum consumption. By replacing 85% of the fuel with renewable material, our consumption of petroleum, much of which is imported, drops significantly.
E85 is better for the environment, both from an air quality and a toxicity standpoint. E85 contains much more oxygen than gasoline, and burns cleaner. It reduces tailpipe emissions when used. It also is much less toxic to the environment if and when spilled.
Because of the small percentage of actual petroleum, the price of E85 will be much less dependent on fragile oil refining processes and politics bring variability and uncertainty to the price of gasoline.
E85 will support farmers in a big way: it's a known consumer of the byproducts of corn they already grow and refine. E85 simply takes the byproduct and makes it work for us, instead of turning into waste. So you can give your $ to the Arabs or a farmer. Producing oil isn't going to add jobs using E85 will.
FACTS
Pure ethanol differs from conventional gasoline in that it has a constant boiling point temperature, higher octane, lower energy density, and requires more heat for vaporization. Blends containing 85% ethanol by volume have a higher octane value than regular gasoline, but because of the lower energy density of ethanol, an E85 blend contains only about 69 - 74% of the energy of regular gasoline on a Btu/gallon basis. This means that a 35% increase in the capacity of the fuel handling infrastructure (delivery tanks and carriers) would be needed for E85 systems to enable the same level of mobility (total vehicle miles of travel) as that provided by the current gasoline distribution system
E85 does have corrosive properties and does require a fuel system sensitive to those properties.
YoMommasTA I don't agree with much of what you posted. But your right about water absorbtion. If you don't ever fill up and just add 10 gallons at a time condensation can develop in the tank. This is minimized by a returnless fuel system and being that its approved for use by every major automaker in the world (E-10 Unleaded) it leads me to belive your fuel rails had other issues not E-10 related. Water in the tank can cause ethanol to separate into the water phase, resulting in either water being introduced into the engine fuel system or the octane content of the gas being reduced below engine driving requirements. Both of these conditions may cause poor performance or engine stalling. So keep water out of your tank! By keeping the cap on and it properly vented. Ethanol can re-dissolve scale or sludge in the tank and potentially carry it into the vehicle fuel system, clogging fuel lines and filters.
gametech In June 2004, the U.S. Department of Agriculture updated its 2002 analysis of the issue and determined that the net energy balance of ethanol production is 1.67 to 1. For every 100 BTUs of energy used to make ethanol, 167 BTUs of ethanol is produced. In 2002, USDA had concluded that the ratio was 1.35 to 1. The USDA findings have been confirmed by additional studies conducted by the University of Nebraska and Argonne National Laboratory.
(Note Biomass Ethanol has a ratio of 2.62 because it uses stitch grass and fast growing trees/weeds.)
These figures take into account the energy required to plant, grow and harvest the corn—as well as the energy required to manufacture and distribute the ethanol.
The net energy balance of ethanol production continues to improve because ethanol production is becoming more efficient. For example, one bushel of corn now yields 2.8 gallons of ethanol—up from 2.5 gallons just a few years ago.
People also forget to factor in the economic benifits of planting, harvesting, local storage and transportation ect..
IMHO the only reason E-10 was so easily adopted by the oil industry is that they didn't have better alternitive to replace MTBE (a replacement for lead as an octane booster) which is being phased out because of enviormental & health concerns. And its cheaper that MTBE
Buy American! Go E85
Pro Stock John
From USA Today
In 2005, the U.S. produced 3.9 billion gallons of fuel ethanol and imported 109 million gallons, almost all from Brazil. By expanding purchases of Brazilian ethanol, the USA could curb what President Bush has labeled its oil addiction. But the U.S. imposes a 54-cent-a-gallon tariff to discourage imports and protect domestic farmers. American ethanol is produced from corn, which costs more and produces less energy per unit of input than sugar cane.
Last edited by YoMommasTA; Apr 22, 2006 at 11:39 AM.
can you tell me why water cannot pass through a fuel injector?
I wouldn't mind spraying a little water it's great at controlling cylinder temperatures & supressing detonation.
I wouldn't mind spraying a little water it's great at controlling cylinder temperatures & supressing detonation.
YoMommasTA I don't agree with much of what you posted. But your right about water absorbtion. So keep water out of your tank! By keeping the cap on and it properly vented. Ethanol can re-dissolve scale or sludge in the tank and potentially carry it into the vehicle fuel system, clogging fuel lines and filters.
1st of all NONE drives around without a fuel cap unless they lost it accidently,so i guess that blows your statements out of the water! i made a pun ha ha
but water is present in all tankers storage tanks fuel station tanks,hmm that might be a good place for ethanol to absorb water! or am i to think everyone is spitting in their tanks?
1st of all NONE drives around without a fuel cap unless they lost it accidently,so i guess that blows your statements out of the water! i made a pun ha ha
but water is present in all tankers storage tanks fuel station tanks,hmm that might be a good place for ethanol to absorb water! or am i to think everyone is spitting in their tanks?
Last edited by YoMommasTA; Apr 22, 2006 at 11:40 AM.
Originally Posted by MNC5
I've run E85 since 2003 and love it. You can optimize your tune to take advantage of the higher octane something the factory hasn't done.
Look at it this way if we don't find a way to make Bio Diesel and E85 work we will all be driving HyBrid's or riding bikes. China and India will be sucking up more and more fuel as there economys grow, there is no way around it.
THE PRO'S
How Can We Benefit?
Using E85 reduces our petroleum consumption. By replacing 85% of the fuel with renewable material, our consumption of petroleum, much of which is imported, drops significantly.
E85 is better for the environment, both from an air quality and a toxicity standpoint. E85 contains much more oxygen than gasoline, and burns cleaner. It reduces tailpipe emissions when used. It also is much less toxic to the environment if and when spilled.
Because of the small percentage of actual petroleum, the price of E85 will be much less dependent on fragile oil refining processes and politics bring variability and uncertainty to the price of gasoline.
E85 will support farmers in a big way: it's a known consumer of the byproducts of corn they already grow and refine. E85 simply takes the byproduct and makes it work for us, instead of turning into waste. So you can give your $ to the Arabs or a farmer. Producing oil isn't going to add jobs using E85 will.
FACTS
Pure ethanol differs from conventional gasoline in that it has a constant boiling point temperature, higher octane, lower energy density, and requires more heat for vaporization. Blends containing 85% ethanol by volume have a higher octane value than regular gasoline, but because of the lower energy density of ethanol, an E85 blend contains only about 69 - 74% of the energy of regular gasoline on a Btu/gallon basis. This means that a 35% increase in the capacity of the fuel handling infrastructure (delivery tanks and carriers) would be needed for E85 systems to enable the same level of mobility (total vehicle miles of travel) as that provided by the current gasoline distribution system
E85 does have corrosive properties and does require a fuel system sensitive to those properties.
YoMommasTA I don't agree with much of what you posted. But your right about water absorbtion. If you don't ever fill up and just add 10 gallons at a time condensation can develop in the tank. This is minimized by a returnless fuel system and being that its approved for use by every major automaker in the world (E-10 Unleaded) it leads me to belive your fuel rails had other issues not E-10 related. Water in the tank can cause ethanol to separate into the water phase, resulting in either water being introduced into the engine fuel system or the octane content of the gas being reduced below engine driving requirements. Both of these conditions may cause poor performance or engine stalling. So keep water out of your tank! By keeping the cap on and it properly vented. Ethanol can re-dissolve scale or sludge in the tank and potentially carry it into the vehicle fuel system, clogging fuel lines and filters.
gametech In June 2004, the U.S. Department of Agriculture updated its 2002 analysis of the issue and determined that the net energy balance of ethanol production is 1.67 to 1. For every 100 BTUs of energy used to make ethanol, 167 BTUs of ethanol is produced. In 2002, USDA had concluded that the ratio was 1.35 to 1. The USDA findings have been confirmed by additional studies conducted by the University of Nebraska and Argonne National Laboratory.
(Note Biomass Ethanol has a ratio of 2.62 because it uses stitch grass and fast growing trees/weeds.)
These figures take into account the energy required to plant, grow and harvest the corn—as well as the energy required to manufacture and distribute the ethanol.
The net energy balance of ethanol production continues to improve because ethanol production is becoming more efficient. For example, one bushel of corn now yields 2.8 gallons of ethanol—up from 2.5 gallons just a few years ago.
People also forget to factor in the economic benifits of planting, harvesting, local storage and transportation ect..
IMHO the only reason E-10 was so easily adopted by the oil industry is that they didn't have better alternitive to replace MTBE (a replacement for lead as an octane booster) which is being phased out because of enviormental & health concerns. And its cheaper that MTBE
Buy American! Go E85
Pro Stock John
From USA Today
In 2005, the U.S. produced 3.9 billion gallons of fuel ethanol and imported 109 million gallons, almost all from Brazil. By expanding purchases of Brazilian ethanol, the USA could curb what President Bush has labeled its oil addiction. But the U.S. imposes a 54-cent-a-gallon tariff to discourage imports and protect domestic farmers. American ethanol is produced from corn, which costs more and produces less energy per unit of input than sugar cane.
Look at it this way if we don't find a way to make Bio Diesel and E85 work we will all be driving HyBrid's or riding bikes. China and India will be sucking up more and more fuel as there economys grow, there is no way around it.
THE PRO'S
How Can We Benefit?
Using E85 reduces our petroleum consumption. By replacing 85% of the fuel with renewable material, our consumption of petroleum, much of which is imported, drops significantly.
E85 is better for the environment, both from an air quality and a toxicity standpoint. E85 contains much more oxygen than gasoline, and burns cleaner. It reduces tailpipe emissions when used. It also is much less toxic to the environment if and when spilled.
Because of the small percentage of actual petroleum, the price of E85 will be much less dependent on fragile oil refining processes and politics bring variability and uncertainty to the price of gasoline.
E85 will support farmers in a big way: it's a known consumer of the byproducts of corn they already grow and refine. E85 simply takes the byproduct and makes it work for us, instead of turning into waste. So you can give your $ to the Arabs or a farmer. Producing oil isn't going to add jobs using E85 will.
FACTS
Pure ethanol differs from conventional gasoline in that it has a constant boiling point temperature, higher octane, lower energy density, and requires more heat for vaporization. Blends containing 85% ethanol by volume have a higher octane value than regular gasoline, but because of the lower energy density of ethanol, an E85 blend contains only about 69 - 74% of the energy of regular gasoline on a Btu/gallon basis. This means that a 35% increase in the capacity of the fuel handling infrastructure (delivery tanks and carriers) would be needed for E85 systems to enable the same level of mobility (total vehicle miles of travel) as that provided by the current gasoline distribution system
E85 does have corrosive properties and does require a fuel system sensitive to those properties.
YoMommasTA I don't agree with much of what you posted. But your right about water absorbtion. If you don't ever fill up and just add 10 gallons at a time condensation can develop in the tank. This is minimized by a returnless fuel system and being that its approved for use by every major automaker in the world (E-10 Unleaded) it leads me to belive your fuel rails had other issues not E-10 related. Water in the tank can cause ethanol to separate into the water phase, resulting in either water being introduced into the engine fuel system or the octane content of the gas being reduced below engine driving requirements. Both of these conditions may cause poor performance or engine stalling. So keep water out of your tank! By keeping the cap on and it properly vented. Ethanol can re-dissolve scale or sludge in the tank and potentially carry it into the vehicle fuel system, clogging fuel lines and filters.
gametech In June 2004, the U.S. Department of Agriculture updated its 2002 analysis of the issue and determined that the net energy balance of ethanol production is 1.67 to 1. For every 100 BTUs of energy used to make ethanol, 167 BTUs of ethanol is produced. In 2002, USDA had concluded that the ratio was 1.35 to 1. The USDA findings have been confirmed by additional studies conducted by the University of Nebraska and Argonne National Laboratory.
(Note Biomass Ethanol has a ratio of 2.62 because it uses stitch grass and fast growing trees/weeds.)
These figures take into account the energy required to plant, grow and harvest the corn—as well as the energy required to manufacture and distribute the ethanol.
The net energy balance of ethanol production continues to improve because ethanol production is becoming more efficient. For example, one bushel of corn now yields 2.8 gallons of ethanol—up from 2.5 gallons just a few years ago.
People also forget to factor in the economic benifits of planting, harvesting, local storage and transportation ect..
IMHO the only reason E-10 was so easily adopted by the oil industry is that they didn't have better alternitive to replace MTBE (a replacement for lead as an octane booster) which is being phased out because of enviormental & health concerns. And its cheaper that MTBE
Buy American! Go E85
Pro Stock John
From USA Today
In 2005, the U.S. produced 3.9 billion gallons of fuel ethanol and imported 109 million gallons, almost all from Brazil. By expanding purchases of Brazilian ethanol, the USA could curb what President Bush has labeled its oil addiction. But the U.S. imposes a 54-cent-a-gallon tariff to discourage imports and protect domestic farmers. American ethanol is produced from corn, which costs more and produces less energy per unit of input than sugar cane.
MN, nice info.
I've been tempted to tune my upcoming turbo project on E85.... very tempted. My fuel tank is sheetmetal, fuel lines are braided, I run aftermarket rails, and my crossovers and returns are braided as well. I will be running an sheetmetal or sinple plan intake too.
I've been tempted to tune my upcoming turbo project on E85.... very tempted. My fuel tank is sheetmetal, fuel lines are braided, I run aftermarket rails, and my crossovers and returns are braided as well. I will be running an sheetmetal or sinple plan intake too.
Here is the problem with all this E-85 Sh*^. Heard it on Fox New Today as a matter of fact. The cost to make this fuel is more then the cost to make regular gasoline. This drives up the price. The demand for this fuel in the US is already greater then our ability to make it. There are only 19 facilities to make this fuel in the US at present. Another 37 are being planed at this moment. But if they all started building these facilities today it will still be 2 years before they can come online. We are at this time not only importing raw crude oil to be producted, but also importing produced gasoline, product natural gas, and PRODUCED E-85. We are already buying the stuff from some other country. They said the problem is not just the fact we do not have enough refineries to make E-85, but that also ,even if we did have enough refineries to make e-85 for all of the US, we do not grow enough crops to supply that many refineries. The only reason it might be cheeper in some places right now is because there are very few gas stations that sell it, and very few people that want it (or go out of thier way to get it). So the supply is greater then the demand (even though we are importing more then 50% OF IT AT THIS PRESENT TIME!!). The US goverment is giving a tax credit of $30,000 to the gas station companies for every single E-85 pump they install, ALL OVER THE US. This means that in the next 2 years it will be everywere (pumps for it at least), BUT we already import more then we make. So catch 22, the price of fuel for our cars is still gong to be out of the roof!
Like I said before, lets just TAKE the oil from them. They don't do anything good with the money from it anyways!!
Like I said before, lets just TAKE the oil from them. They don't do anything good with the money from it anyways!!
Ok, so what I gather from MNC5 is, in the future, for me to buy corn for my barbeque, well, I won't be able to buy corn in the future! OH wait, I work for an evil oil company, I can afford anything.
All, bull stuff aside, he does have it down pretty freaking perfect. I work for an oil company, and guys, let me tell you, there is enough oil out there, but it is sooooooo expencive to extract it. We have gotten all the easy stuff to get already. We have several hundered years worth left to get, but it is soooo freaking deep, and in the most inhabital places, it drives the cost threw the roof to get it. The fact is, before long, probly in the next 20 years, the only customer that will be able to afford it or even legal to buy it will be the goverment. Get ready, gasoline is as much a thing of the past for comman folk as leaded gasoline is now. Yes avgas has lead, but most people can not aford the 1,000,000 dollar planes to use it. But even still, E-85 will not make the cost per gallon cheeper then gasoline is today. If it could, we would have been driving on it years ago. Right now today, gasoline derived from crude oil is still cheeper, but, but, but, its closer today then ever before. That means we will NEVER see the price for fuel per gallon for our cars ever go down, at least not until we TAKE the oil from them, oh and nuke all those in china and india who is using our fuel, yes OUR FUEL!
Hey guys, like how I start off with an idiotic ignorent statment and then go serious, then end with something even dumber then what I started with? Those parts are to make you laugh, so no flaming on those parts please.
All, bull stuff aside, he does have it down pretty freaking perfect. I work for an oil company, and guys, let me tell you, there is enough oil out there, but it is sooooooo expencive to extract it. We have gotten all the easy stuff to get already. We have several hundered years worth left to get, but it is soooo freaking deep, and in the most inhabital places, it drives the cost threw the roof to get it. The fact is, before long, probly in the next 20 years, the only customer that will be able to afford it or even legal to buy it will be the goverment. Get ready, gasoline is as much a thing of the past for comman folk as leaded gasoline is now. Yes avgas has lead, but most people can not aford the 1,000,000 dollar planes to use it. But even still, E-85 will not make the cost per gallon cheeper then gasoline is today. If it could, we would have been driving on it years ago. Right now today, gasoline derived from crude oil is still cheeper, but, but, but, its closer today then ever before. That means we will NEVER see the price for fuel per gallon for our cars ever go down, at least not until we TAKE the oil from them, oh and nuke all those in china and india who is using our fuel, yes OUR FUEL!
Hey guys, like how I start off with an idiotic ignorent statment and then go serious, then end with something even dumber then what I started with? Those parts are to make you laugh, so no flaming on those parts please.
