Camaro DOA?
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
From: Anderson, IN
What the... did you guys read this person's comments from the link at the bottom of his article? This guy is clueless...
First he talks like the 35 mpg mark is coming all at once then he says the CAFE is an "average" of highway vs city miles on individual cars instead of an average across a fleet of vehicles so any vehicle not over 35 mpg cannot be sold, then he talks like we are in some extreme recession, which last I checked the GDP has still increased every single year this decade. He is dead wrong on almost every point he makes.
...SNIP.... Third, isn't there a part to the new CAFE standards that gives a huge mpg figure boost if they make the vehicle dual-fuel (E85 and gasoline). If it became that big of a problem they could just add a table to the computer for E85 and BAM, mpg is no problem again.
First he talks like the 35 mpg mark is coming all at once then he says the CAFE is an "average" of highway vs city miles on individual cars instead of an average across a fleet of vehicles so any vehicle not over 35 mpg cannot be sold, then he talks like we are in some extreme recession, which last I checked the GDP has still increased every single year this decade. He is dead wrong on almost every point he makes.
...SNIP.... Third, isn't there a part to the new CAFE standards that gives a huge mpg figure boost if they make the vehicle dual-fuel (E85 and gasoline). If it became that big of a problem they could just add a table to the computer for E85 and BAM, mpg is no problem again.
On the E-85 issue I believe I saw a table where a big "gas guzzling" V8 that gets 22-25 mpg on regular gas gets the credit of having a 40+ MPG rating if it is E-85 compatible.
Edit: I did find this @ WIKI so be warned of the source.
Fuel economy calculation for alternative fuel vehicles multiplies the actual fuel used by a "Fuel Content" Factor of 0.15 as an incentive to develop alternative fuel vehicles. Dual-fuel vehicles, such as E85 capable models, are taken as the average of this alternative fuel rating and its gasoline rate. Thus a 15 mpg dual-fuel E85 capable vehicle would be rated as 40 mpg for CAFE purposes, in spite of the fact that less than one percent of the fuel used in E85 capable vehicles is actually E85.
Last edited by Cool_Hand_Luke; Jun 14, 2008 at 02:36 PM.
So if GM justs makes the majority of vehicles sold in the US E85 compatible, the average fleet mileage would be sky high and better than Honda and Toyota. That is what GM should do and hammer the eco-nuts and Japanese manufactures with advertizing. Beat them with it till they bleed and yell uncle. 
On the E-85 issue I believe I saw a table where a big "gas guzzling" V8 that gets 22-25 mpg on regular gas gets the credit of having a 40+ MPG rating if it is E-85 compatible.
Edit: I did find this @ WIKI so be warned of the source.
Fuel economy calculation for alternative fuel vehicles multiplies the actual fuel used by a "Fuel Content" Factor of 0.15 as an incentive to develop alternative fuel vehicles. Dual-fuel vehicles, such as E85 capable models, are taken as the average of this alternative fuel rating and its gasoline rate. Thus a 15 mpg dual-fuel E85 capable vehicle would be rated as 40 mpg for CAFE purposes, in spite of the fact that less than one percent of the fuel used in E85 capable vehicles is actually E85.
Edit: I did find this @ WIKI so be warned of the source.
Fuel economy calculation for alternative fuel vehicles multiplies the actual fuel used by a "Fuel Content" Factor of 0.15 as an incentive to develop alternative fuel vehicles. Dual-fuel vehicles, such as E85 capable models, are taken as the average of this alternative fuel rating and its gasoline rate. Thus a 15 mpg dual-fuel E85 capable vehicle would be rated as 40 mpg for CAFE purposes, in spite of the fact that less than one percent of the fuel used in E85 capable vehicles is actually E85.
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That's the reason I gave the warning of the source.
I believe that WIKI used this document:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...alRule2004.htm
Which was in effect until 2004 and supported their flawed math.
I've read other documents recently released 5/2008 that give manufacturers a maximum of 1.2 MPG credit under the AMFA.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site...7529cdba046a0/
If you have the math post it up so we can see it. I know that this is a fleet average as well and not model specific.
I believe that WIKI used this document:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...alRule2004.htm
Which was in effect until 2004 and supported their flawed math.
I've read other documents recently released 5/2008 that give manufacturers a maximum of 1.2 MPG credit under the AMFA.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site...7529cdba046a0/
If you have the math post it up so we can see it. I know that this is a fleet average as well and not model specific.
Last edited by Cool_Hand_Luke; Jun 18, 2008 at 05:44 PM.
Cool_Hand_Luke, I'll tell ya from personal experience, you get about 15% WORSE mileage with E85. When I used it for driving to work, I was driving about 35 miles each way, 6 days a week. With the difference in price compared to the drop in mileage, is wasn't worth it where I live. I don't work at the same place anymore, so I haven't had to experiment lately. I don't know if there is enough of a price difference now to make it a good idea.
IMO, the only thing it is really good for is if you have a vehicle that needs 105 octane, because it's a heck of a lot cheaper than say Cam II.
IMO, the only thing it is really good for is if you have a vehicle that needs 105 octane, because it's a heck of a lot cheaper than say Cam II.
E85 is really only good for high octane applications. For instance, I run a 50/50 mix of 91/E85 which is 98 octane in the skittle. The car loves it and it is roughly 3.50/gal. The mileage is slightly worse(from about 25mpg to 21 or so - this is currently under test), but I can turn up the boost and not have to pay 6.50/gal. The peace of mind is worth it as well. I'm not constantly having to watch the gauges to make sure I'm just right because the high octane gives me margin to work with. They really need to find a way to make it that doesn't impact the food supply so much, but that will happen.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 34,632
Likes: 2,558
From: Schiller Park, ILL Member: #317
I'm not really concerned about the weight, so long at it's under 4,000lbs and comes with a 400+ HP LS3. It'll be plenty quick for a cruiser. If you want a stripped down race car to build into a track mule, just get a 4th gen LS1 Camaro. You can buy and build a 600hp LS1 Z28 and get the weight down to 3000lbs for about half the price of a new Camaro.
I love the mind set that american cars, like GM, don't get good gas mileage. It's almost as bad as the obama cult following.
the CAFE regulation is an average... so, as the camaro in the past, the average will not be hurt since the v6 will outsell the v8 and keep the average up.
Now, adapt the 2-mode setup in a family car, or in a compart car, and your gonna get great mileage. The HP wars are not over, just being redefined.
the CAFE regulation is an average... so, as the camaro in the past, the average will not be hurt since the v6 will outsell the v8 and keep the average up.
Now, adapt the 2-mode setup in a family car, or in a compart car, and your gonna get great mileage. The HP wars are not over, just being redefined.
I think they already are, I remember reading something about next gen lsx's having some new direct port injection which could bump the lower cubed motors over 30 mpg ratings.