</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Fenris Ulf:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jsears8:
<strong>For the test to be fair you should aquire atleast 2 TBs from each of the particpants. Ones that are already on the market. This will prevent participants to massage there TB moreso then the off the shelf product. Take the average of the 2 throttle bodys and then you have a fair comparison.

A well ported TB on my car was worth approx. 6rwhp at peak. I don't see that there is going to be a definitive difference between all the aftermarket pieces.

I would like to see this test done on a FI car if anything.

Justin</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Those are some good points Justin. To level the playing field you could probably just pick a city, find customers already in possession of the TB for submission. This way we would be testing the actual products for sure.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with Justin and Fenris on this. It would be best to use products already in the field if possible. The average flow for two TB's should give a fair pictures. Testing on FI car would be nice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong> I handle about 20 issues a week.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow John sounds like you stay busy! Out of the 20 issues a week, how many are bogus and how many are legitimate on average for a month? Any particular sponsors name come up repeatedly? Care to share?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JimMueller:
<strong>Shaner griped at me when I dynoed, swapped TB's, then re-dynoed right away. This was a result of gaining 3RWHP and losing 3TQ. He and a number of other folks have said that the PCM needs time to learn. I haven't re-dynoed since then, but I also reverted my MAF back to stock.

I pesonally wish these types of comparisons were done more often. Vendors with good product have nothing to fear. If they don't fair well, welcome to a market economy.

Will you be hot-swapping the TB's on the dyno, or giving them "learn" time?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Could it be he was upset because you collected objective data under controled conditions showing what his product is actually worth rather than some sort of hyperbole testomonail? I think additional testing could help us draw a conclusion. If I'm the one to do the testing, I was thinking in terms of 2-3 pulls to get the car at temp and warm up the driveline etc then switch out the TB's hot and make 2 pulls on each.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by John B:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Will you be hot-swapping the TB's on the dyno, or giving them "learn" time </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When swapping TB's there is no need to "learn" anything! Your MAF controls the airflow that the PCM sees and at WOT your LTFT's should be zero anyway so the "re-learning" is only for part throttle around town driving, not WOT on a dyno!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What he said, the TB doesn't shouldn't require any relearn.

I'm open to ideas, on how we proceed. The only problem I see with using TB's in the field is several cars could be down for a while if the TB's were shipped to me for flow and dyno testing. Not all of the TB's would arrive at the same time etc we'd ended up waiting one one etc. I'm the only person in my area with a ported TB (of any kind) that I know of as most seem to dismiss the mod as a waste of time. So I don't know of anyone with a S2, Bauer, Jantzer or home ported one to test, that can help. I know my LPE was worth 3rwhp & 5rwtq when my car was a bolt on car and that was well worth it to me. We can do the test some where other than the Charlotte area if that works better. I think it is important to do the test. I'd be happy to drive a reasonable distance (3-4hours one way) to help get this testing done. However, as for flow and dyno testing (and me paying for it) my connections are here in my backyard.

Logistically, I was thinking a TB direct from the players (Shaner, Bauer, Jantzer, JPR, and Fenris home ported) would be easier to coordinate an no one have their car down for a week while the flow testing, dyno testing and shipping to and back occured.

I'm happy there is intrest in doing this!

Comments? I think we can work something out

<small>[ December 27, 2002, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: 99 Black Bird T/A ]</small>

 

I think this is an awesome idea. you can really tell which one is the best then. ive heard it was the bauer.

 

I'll go ahead and add my .02

I got my LPE TB installed here in Dallas, it was installed, and then re-tunned with LS1 Edit to make sure A/F and idle were Ok....I gained 11 peak rwhp and up to 13 rwhp on some points on the grahp....

before and after dynos were maybe an hour apart..

mods are in sig

-Alex

 

IMO
Flowbench testing only is the only way to get a fair comparison between TB's.
The dyno will be inconclusive at best for two reasons.

#1 First is the TB bolt holes are bigger than the bolts that hold the TB to the intake. This means there is slop and leaves room for misalignment of the TB bore with the intake bore....I have pictures of this. Misalignment leaves an intake lip hanging out on one side which will disrupt the air flow. Few people take the time to align the bores before they tighten down the TB bolts.

#2 If the TB is bigger than 75mm then there will be misalignment with a stock intake since the intake neck opens to 75mm. A bigger TB would flow more air on the bench, but likely be a no gainer on the dyno. By the same theory, a very high flowing 75mm TB would show little dyno gain over a poor flowing 75mm due to the stock intake manifold necking down to 72mm inside the intake.

To eliminate these problems your dyno test engine should have a TB neck bigger than 75mm.... this would be easy with a Holley aluminum intake.
again IMO.

I always like to see real testing done on products, but I like to see the testing done very fairly & scientifically.
Is this shootout still going to happen?
Dan

 

I would love to see this, come on sponsors step up and jump on this one for us. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

 

I'm working on my latest creation. Should be the end of next week before I display it. Lets just say it looks stunning!

Tell me where to send one, I'm game.

 

DO IT!

 

DO IT!
But no dissing the admins, they rock and provide a valuable service...just accept their opinions/decisions, they've earned the right to do whatever they see fit by opening this board. My life would suck more without it, they are fair and have proveb their commitment to the caause..you'll only look silly.

 

Here is my .02!
Personally, i know this will NOT add SOTP Hp!
I have chose the Bret Bauer TB. Have chatted with him online for approx 45 min. He seems to me to be a great guy that believes in cutomer service.
Again, it's about "personal choice"! IMO.
However, challenge is a good thing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

I ported my own car runs better now don't know how much of a gain I got but for 10 bucks for jb weld and a little time it was worth it

 

Was someone going to make this shootout happen or just let this die?

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by white2001s10:
<strong> Was someone going to make this shootout happen or just let this die? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, I've been off line for about three weeks and not able to reply.

I would still like to make this happen there are a few things that have changed.

As my cars clutch seems to slip at high rpm so I don't think they dyno test with my car would show anything. Clutch can't hold at 418rwhp so if one of TB was worth a gain it wouldn't show up due to the slipping clutch.

I can still get the flow bench testing done. I'm still game for that.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by white2001s10:
<strong> IMO
Flowbench testing only is the only way to get a fair comparison between TB's.
The dyno will be inconclusive at best for two reasons.

#1 First is the TB bolt holes are bigger than the bolts that hold the TB to the intake. This means there is slop and leaves room for misalignment of the TB bore with the intake bore....I have pictures of this. Misalignment leaves an intake lip hanging out on one side which will disrupt the air flow. Few people take the time to align the bores before they tighten down the TB bolts.

#2 If the TB is bigger than 75mm then there will be misalignment with a stock intake since the intake neck opens to 75mm. A bigger TB would flow more air on the bench, but likely be a no gainer on the dyno. By the same theory, a very high flowing 75mm TB would show little dyno gain over a poor flowing 75mm due to the stock intake manifold necking down to 72mm inside the intake.

To eliminate these problems your dyno test engine should have a TB neck bigger than 75mm.... this would be easy with a Holley aluminum intake.
again IMO.

I always like to see real testing done on products, but I like to see the testing done very fairly & scientifically.
Is this shootout still going to happen?
Dan </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good, I hope you do it. As I said in this earlier post I don't think dyno numbers will end up being a good comparison for TB's.
A TB could flow 10% more than another but not show a thing on the dyno due to other restrictions in the system.

 

None of this testing looks like anyone is going to do it properly. There have been many problems already listed on here, let alone dyno accuracy. You really think a dyno jet can find 1hp on a untuned TB that's just dropped on to a car sitting on the dyno. Yeah right.

There are many things to this.

Do the TB porters have 2 extra cores just for this test?

Did anyone formally invite each TB porter?

Are there going to be proper testing procedures? Or are we just going to just throw a TB on, dyno it and call it good? A flow bench with the proper fixture will work the best to determine which TB has the most potential for HP gains.

One more thing, if Bauer and Shaner don't show up is there really anything to compare the results too? They are the 2 TB's that everyone likes, so wouldn't the ones who show up without them only be fighting for 3rd?

Woody

 

Hey, I congratulate you for your efforts in doing such a comparison. This would be quite a bit of work, but valuable research in my view. I, for one, would like to know the difference in performance and why?

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 2002SS4U:
<strong> None of this testing looks like anyone is going to do it properly. There have been many problems already listed on here, let alone dyno accuracy. You really think a dyno jet can find 1hp on a untuned TB that's just dropped on to a car sitting on the dyno. Yeah right.

There are many things to this.

Do the TB porters have 2 extra cores just for this test?

Did anyone formally invite each TB porter?

Are there going to be proper testing procedures? Or are we just going to just throw a TB on, dyno it and call it good? A flow bench with the proper fixture will work the best to determine which TB has the most potential for HP gains.

One more thing, if Bauer and Shaner don't show up is there really anything to compare the results too? They are the 2 TB's that everyone likes, so wouldn't the ones who show up without them only be fighting for 3rd?

Woody </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Excellent points Woody,

I for one have not recieved an address to sent a ported JPR Throttle body in for testing, I was the first Sponsor to respond to this post. There is criteria for testing that must be adheared to, i.e. engine temp between pulls, SAE % correction variation within a long testing period, repeatability as in back to back for the two finalists to find the first place puller, IAC counts, TP angle, maintaining a 12.9-13.0 AF ratio etc.etc. lots of data points that must be adheared to during the test period. Flow benching for the shootout is actually easier to win at than a bolt on dyno shoot out. The day Dyno Jet sells a retrofitting wheels and tire set for there dyno's so they can be driven on the street...Ahh nevermind... <img border="0" alt="[evil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Joe.

<small>[ February 13, 2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: JPR ]</small>