Cam. Should I do it?
Cam. Should I do it? Hey guys I am thinking about doing a cam on my 98' Formy, but I don't want to spend a fortune. Also the engine is at 145,000. It runs great and doesn't use oil, but would a cam or heads and cam package basically be retarded without rebuilding the engine first? If so I am not prepared to do a rebuild and a cam install at this time. Now if the engine would hold up I am thinking of one of the TSP packages. Probably an MS4 kit. Also I still have the stock intake and TB. Would the gains be worthwhile or would I at least need to get an LS6 intake and ported TB? What kind of power would an MS4 yeild with stock heads and intake vs. with LS6 intake? Thanks guys.
to answer the power estuion, it would make ****. the MS4 is going need to need alot of flow, something the LS1 intake cannot do. also, why the MS4? do you just want the biggest cam with a serious idle and make all kinds of peak numbers, or have you just not looked around at other options? not saying the MS4 is a bad choice at all, i know a few people who run it well, but neither on stock heads/intake.
also, what is your idea of a fortune? is $2,000 too much to spend on a H/C setup for you?
heres some questions you need to answer before we can really help you:
1.)what are your power goals for the car?
2.)how do you want it to drive? (like, is this you DD or a weekend car?)
3.)what are your track goals (if any)?
4.)how much are you willing/ABLE to spend? <---thats the biggy
i dont think 145k is too much for a H/C package. with that said, if i was doing a H/C on that high mileage engine, id use it as an excuse to replace alot of stuff in the motor. basically a rebuild, but not complete.
another option is buying a new motor. if you have deep enough pockets, why not get a fresh motor? i know TSP's 370ci is even cheaper than their 347ci, adn that would allow you (because its a 6.0 block) to use L92 heads or even go up to a 408ci if you want a stroker later on. but its not just TSP, their are plenty of sponsors here that can build you a lower cube motor for cheap. if you are going to tear the whole motor down, and rebuild with new rods and pistons, bearings etc., id go the new motor route, as it can be very expensive rebuilding depending on where you go.
also, what is your idea of a fortune? is $2,000 too much to spend on a H/C setup for you?
heres some questions you need to answer before we can really help you:
1.)what are your power goals for the car?
2.)how do you want it to drive? (like, is this you DD or a weekend car?)
3.)what are your track goals (if any)?
4.)how much are you willing/ABLE to spend? <---thats the biggy
i dont think 145k is too much for a H/C package. with that said, if i was doing a H/C on that high mileage engine, id use it as an excuse to replace alot of stuff in the motor. basically a rebuild, but not complete.
another option is buying a new motor. if you have deep enough pockets, why not get a fresh motor? i know TSP's 370ci is even cheaper than their 347ci, adn that would allow you (because its a 6.0 block) to use L92 heads or even go up to a 408ci if you want a stroker later on. but its not just TSP, their are plenty of sponsors here that can build you a lower cube motor for cheap. if you are going to tear the whole motor down, and rebuild with new rods and pistons, bearings etc., id go the new motor route, as it can be very expensive rebuilding depending on where you go.
putting an MS4 in a high mileage motor would be like throwing a stick of dynamite in a china shop. lol
Thats not entirely true. First thing i would recomend is to get a leakdown test and compression test. If it passes that then you would be ok with doing Heads and Cam as long as you dont go with a high compression setup. Something a little more modest like a 230 cam and LS6 heads would not be too hard on your motor.
There have been a couple guys that have run 200,000 miles on camonly or H/C setups but none that i know of used a donkey dick cam or high compression heads. So you can do it, but you need to be realistic about the motors capabilities.
That being said you should also look into replacing lifters, oil pump, timing chain, and every gasket you can get your hands on.
One more thing. If you DO go with a large cam (high 230 low 240) You would be waisting your time and money if you dont upgrade your intake because that LS1 will not be able to flow well enough in the high RPMs to feed abig cam.
Thats not entirely true. First thing i would recomend is to get a leakdown test and compression test. If it passes that then you would be ok with doing Heads and Cam as long as you dont go with a high compression setup. Something a little more modest like a 230 cam and LS6 heads would not be too hard on your motor.
There have been a couple guys that have run 200,000 miles on camonly or H/C setups but none that i know of used a donkey dick cam or high compression heads. So you can do it, but you need to be realistic about the motors capabilities.
That being said you should also look into replacing lifters, oil pump, timing chain, and every gasket you can get your hands on.
One more thing. If you DO go with a large cam (high 230 low 240) You would be waisting your time and money if you dont upgrade your intake because that LS1 will not be able to flow well enough in the high RPMs to feed abig cam.
I agree with the above statements. An MS4 using an LS1 intake is a bottleneck. My advice instead of getting heads along with the cam package, go ahead and do what HTX suggested and replace the lifters for sure, timing chain, and yes all of your gaskets for peace of mind. Then with what you have left over, save for a rebuild down the road or a new motor completely. Not to mention, I see you are running 3.42's. With an MS4, you will kill your low end. I would at least go with 4.10's. If I were you, I would go with a 228R or something of the like.
I agree with the last two post. Go with a cam only setup high 220's to low 230's and replace chain,pump and lifters if you can afford the head gaskets. Also do all the required gaskets needed to do the job. And no matter what, you need the ls6 intake. This setup would not cost you much considering you could find most of the parts in the clasified section pretty reasonable.
You would be looking at around 380 to 410rwhp. And it would have a lot of tq.
You would be looking at around 380 to 410rwhp. And it would have a lot of tq.
Thanks for the advise guys. I think I'm just going to leave well enough alone for now. I could probably go about $2000, which would get me the cam kit, intake, oil pump, timing chain. etc. but at the end of the day I still have close to 150,000 miles and the car is my DD. I think I will wait until I can do a full rebuld and heads/cam swap. I was basically wondering if I could just spend about $700 and just put a cam in it, but if the gains aren't going to be worth it, and I would definately need to do things like the oil pump and timing chain it would end up running $1000 basically for a lopey idle with not much more power, it's just not worth it IMO.
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Don't forget also, you need a good tune in the end. So you'll need a little cash for that. Most people just see the price for the parts. It's all the little things that add up. So you need some extra sat aside for that. Oil, oil filters, coolant, plugs, wires, it goes on and on.
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Verdad Gallardo Thanks for the advise guys. I think I'm just going to leave well enough alone for now. I could probably go about $2000, which would get me the cam kit, intake, oil pump, timing chain. etc. but at the end of the day I still have close to 150,000 miles and the car is my DD. I think I will wait until I can do a full rebuld and heads/cam swap. I was basically wondering if I could just spend about $700 and just put a cam in it, but if the gains aren't going to be worth it, and I would definately need to do things like the oil pump and timing chain it would end up running $1000 basically for a lopey idle with not much more power, it's just not worth it IMO.
Im in a simular situation right now. My car has 145k miles and uses a little bit of oil, but anyway i decided to go all out with a topend rebuild and i bought all the goodies.(ms4, ls6 heads ported, double roller timing set, lifters, pushrods, ls6 oil pump,ect.......) Well we took the motor out to do the swap and found 7 pistons were loose and burning oil. So if you do the swap be prepaired for a whole engine rebuild.
probably a choice for the better man. dotn be down though, if you think you could fork out $2,000 for the cam kit + other valvetrain upgrades, gaskets, oil pump, etc. then you are almost up to brand new shortblock money! save up a bit longer, say til spring and see what ya got. if you bought some used 243's and a used LS6 here in the FS section, you could get both for udner $1,000. just another way of cutting costs that would get you alot closer to a new motor. if you got that + a brand new shortblock and did the labor yourself, i can see you getting away with the whole thing for around, maybe a little over, 4k bucks.
see at that point, spending that much money is why i was telling the OP that he should jsut save up for a new motor. ~2700 for a shortblock, and if you go used on just some bare 243's and LS6 intake you could have some money left over for the extra stuff, might only be 1000 bucks more to finish the motor and get it in. if i was spending over 3,000 on a rebuild, id just buy new.
I'm at 1300 for my cam swap, and thats everything, cam, springs, lifters, pushrods, all gaskets, chain, oil pump, etc. Spending another 400 for the tune and I'll be at 1700 total