Generation III Internal Engine 1997-2006 LS1 | LS6
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Question on Pushrod length with adjustable rockers

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Jul 8, 2010 | 12:58 AM
  #41  
Adrenaline_Z's Avatar
TECH Resident
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
From: K-W, Ontario
Default

Originally Posted by LIL SS
So explain to me how the push rod is seeing a force greater than the oil pressure force against the plunger if the lifter is on the base circle and the valve is fully seated againt the valve seat.
I'll assume you have set valves before as I type this out. With the lifter
on the base circle, and valve seated, you install the pushrod and place the
rocker on the rocker stud.

You turn the locking nut on the rocker arm until all of the up and down
movement has been removed from the push rod. This is called zero lash.

At this moment, the lifter seat is resting against the retaining clip and
there is no preload. Everything is relaxed so to speak.

The next step is to set preload. You begin turning the rocker adjusting
nut until the pushrod loads the seat. Since the valve spring pressure is
higher than the plunger spring, the rocker will deflect down on the left
side of the centerline and the pushrod will move the lifter seat down
(let's say 0.040").

You have now just pre-loaded the lifter. With the rocker nut turned down
about 1/2 turn from zero lash, there is about 0.040" preload. There is no
slack in the assembly.

Let's say you prime the oiling system at this time (the engine does not turn).

The oil fills the passages and enters the lifter chamber. The oil pushes up
on the plunger and seat assembly with "X" amount of force. We'll use 60
pounds for sake of a number.

Nothing has moved. The lifter seat is already loaded. No movement is made
in the valve train because there is no slack.

At this point in time you have 60 pounds pushing up, and an equal force
pushing back. The spring is only exerting a small amount of energy to
maintain an equal and opposite force.

60 pounds pushing up, and 60 pounds pushing down. The forces are equal.
Nothing moves. No work is done.

If you were to turn the engine over by hand at this time, the lifter will begin
to follow the cam lobe. Since the lifter is full of oil, it is essentially solid and
cannot be compressed.

As the lifter follows the lobe pattern, the valve begins to rise and you feel
resistance from the compression of the spring.

Now there is an increasing dynamic load as the lifter ramps up and the spring
is compressing further. The lifter is still pre-loaded, there is no slack in the
pushrod.

You now have 200 pounds of force on the lifter seat pushing down, and
200 pounds pushing up (oil cannot be compressed in the chamber). The
valve lifted because of the energy you exerted when turning the motor over.

At this time the lifter is high in the lifter bore and disconnected from oil system
pressure.

You continue to turn the motor over, and lifter is on the nose of the lobe.
With the rocker ratio and fully compressed spring you now have 400 pounds
acting on the seat (down) and 400 pounds acting on the seat (upward).

Since the net force is zero, there is no additional lift. The preload is still at
0.040".

Turn the motor further; the lifter comes back to the base circle. Spring
pressure is reducing. The oil in the lifter is still maintaining a 'solid' internal
mechanism. The force pushing up and down is still equal. The only external
forces used to lift and lower the valve are coming from you as you turn
the motor over.

Now the last stage. The lifter is on the basecircle. The pushrod is still
pre-loading the lifter down 0.040". This time you have some bleed down
because of the spring pressure and the lifter holes are aligned with the
oiling system.

If the valvetrain did not wear down, the preload does not change. The chamber
should be full of oil.

The oil system pressure is less than the spring pressure, so the oil will
move to the area of least resistance (lowest pressure). If there's no
void to fill in the lifter chamber, the oil pump pressure will cause the fluid
to move up the pushrod and oil the rocker and spring.

And the cycle repeats.



However I do still see some weight in bleed down causing reduction in gross valve lift (as well as push rod deflection ect). On top of that, I still think that it might be possible to slow this degradation process by putting more preload in the lifter allowing you to maintain the volume needed in the lifter easier.

I also can see the possibility of the plunger depth dropping durring rpm bleed down causing the filling hole to miss align and further slow the bleed down process.
These are good points. valvetrain harmonics and rod flexing contribute to
loss of lift. The function of hydraulic lifters lends itself to poor valve repeatability
as you mention.

Having the correct preload and components for your set up can help reduce
these losses...or we can just throw in a solid cam/lifters and get instant
power increase.
Reply
Old Jul 8, 2010 | 09:43 AM
  #42  
LIL SS's Avatar
Moderator
iTrader: (9)
 
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,966
Likes: 2
From: San Jose area
Default

Originally Posted by LIL SS
If the valve is closed, the only pressure the valve spring is putting force on is the retainer and the valve seat in the head. That is why I say the push rod at that point is only seeing the force of the plunger/oil pressure.. It sees equal pressure but the driving force is only the plunger/oil pressure.

At this point in time you have 60 pounds pushing up, and an equal force
pushing back. The spring is only exerting a small amount of energy to
maintain an equal and opposite force.




Ding Ding Ding.. We said the same thing..
Reply
Old Jul 8, 2010 | 10:34 AM
  #43  
Adrenaline_Z's Avatar
TECH Resident
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
From: K-W, Ontario
Default

With all due respect, you contradicted yourself in that paragraph:

the only pressure the valve spring is putting force on is the retainer and the valve seat in the head
If you meant otherwise, then cool...let's move on. I think we've covered
everything there is to know about basic hydraulic lifter operation.
Reply
Old Jul 11, 2010 | 05:53 PM
  #44  
NArtissimus's Avatar
Thread Starter
Teching In
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Default

Hey I just wanted to say thanks to both of you for giving me some things to think about and sorry for causing the argument heh It was very educational thou.

I did pick up some valve checking springs and gonna get to that next weekend. Hopefully my parts store has the length in stock so I can complete assembly and get all my parts off the benches and move on the the dif and tranny.
Reply
Old Jul 18, 2010 | 09:48 PM
  #45  
Moshell's Avatar
Teching In
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Default

Way back in post #3...

"When you measure the pushrod length for your type of rockers, you will
adjust for zero lash (yes, lash) with the rocker tip resting on the mid point
of the valve stem."

Are you saying check pushrod length with no preload and only zero lash set?

Also, wouldn't you want the roller tip set slightly inboard, so that the wipe pattern would be centered on the stem?
Reply
Old Jul 19, 2010 | 12:42 AM
  #46  
Adrenaline_Z's Avatar
TECH Resident
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
From: K-W, Ontario
Default

Originally Posted by Moshell
Way back in post #3...

Are you saying check pushrod length with no preload and only zero lash set?
To account for 'pump-up' yes, especially on tight clearance set-ups.

wouldn't you want the roller tip set slightly inboard, so that the wipe pattern would be centered on the stem?
It depends on the rocker design. Ideally, you want the most valve lift,
and velocity out of the motion.

If you can setup the rocker arc such that it starts inbound
and finishes mid point, that *should* promote the fastest valve velocity
(in theory).

The more it stays in the middle of the stem, the less loss will occur.

The only way to know is measure it out (something like the rig shown in the
photo earlier with the dials) on your actual valvetrain.
Reply




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:27 PM.

story-0
6 Gifts Neither Your Dad Nor Grad Will Shove Into the 'Trinket Drawer'

Don't get dad new socks or a grill brush this year.

By Brett Foote | 2026-06-04 18:13:20


VIEW MORE
story-1
Topdon ONE vs. Artidiag 800 BT2: Which is the Diagnostic Tablet For You?

Slideshow: We take a close look at the ONE and Artidiag 800BT2 diagnostic tools from Topdon and the reasons to buy one over the other.

By Pouria Savadkouei | 2026-05-28 11:05:11


VIEW MORE
story-2
Gas Monkey Built a 6-Wheel Ferrari Testarossa With a Corvette LT4 Engine

Slideshow: The controversial Ferrari F6 swaps its original flat-12 for a Corvette Z06-derived LT4 V8 and sends power to four rear wheels through a custom-built drivetrain.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-26 18:23:54


VIEW MORE
story-3
7 Most Reliable High-Performance Engines GM Has Ever Built

Slideshow:These GM engines didn't just make huge power, they survived abuse, boost, track days, and six-digit mileage with a reputation for refusing to quit.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-21 16:45:27


VIEW MORE
story-4
Amazing '71 Camaro Restomod Is Modern Muscle Car Under the Skin

Slideshow: This heavily modified 1971 Camaro mixes classic muscle car styling with a fifth-generation Camaro interior and modern LS3 power.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-12 18:06:42


VIEW MORE
story-5
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them

Slideshow: From wobbling harmonic balancers to failed EBCMs, these are the issues that define long-term C5 ownership and what repairs typically involve.

By Pouria Savadkouei | 2026-05-07 18:44:57


VIEW MORE
story-6
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph

Slideshow: A modern Camaro transformed into a retro icon, this limited-run "Bandit" build blends nostalgia with brute force in a way few revivals manage.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-21 13:57:02


VIEW MORE
story-7
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked

Slideshow: Cadillac didn't just crash the high-performance luxury vehicle party, it showed up loud, supercharged, and occasionally a little unhinged...

By Pouria Savadkouei | 2026-04-16 10:05:15


VIEW MORE
story-8
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!

Slideshow: Top ten most powerful Chevy trucks ever made

By | 2026-03-25 09:22:26


VIEW MORE
story-9
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP

Slideshow: Hennessey has turned the Silverado ZR2 into a 700-hp off-road monster with supercharged V8 power and a limited production run.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-03-24 18:57:52


VIEW MORE