word, even better, the way they manufacture the SBC heads is about a decade old, the way they manufacture LS1 heads is really up to date

 

Get these damn heads out!

Seriously just from the stronger castings alone they should be nice. So far the numbers are not anything incredible but they are probably TRUE at least. At the school (SAM) I still haven't seen almost any aftermarket ported stockers except MTIs even go much over 300 cfm and that includes heads that were brought to us that said they flowed 335 cfm. I know things have slowly gotten better but the AFR heads should be nice when they finally do get here. We have ordered several sets of these for testing for our shop as well.

That said I know I've seen more LSx heads than anyone on this board from what I've heard some say and there are LSx castings out there right now that are way ahead of what AFR has said but they are much bigger race heads and might not make any more power on anything other than a large high rpm race engine so we'll just all have to wait and see what happens. Once you are acheiving good VE and turning valvetrain limiting rpm the heads flowing more won't always do that much more for you but I don't think we have gotten there yet!

 

Ed, as stated at the top of my post, I clearly say the following is my idle speculation. What part of that don't you get? As for BS, I never stated it was fact so get off your high horse. Do you even own a flow bench?

If the AFR 205's truely destory all in their path, I think we'd have seen some flow data basedon a 3.9 bore @ 28 w/1.75 pipe on exhaust with and without LS6 intake.

I hope the AFR are great, in the end they may turn out great.

 

FYI, 99 BlackBird....Ed is the owner of FlowTech Induction and has probably played with more head/cam set ups than most of us care to hear about.

 

Dude, if Ed says its true,it's true. If he says it's bull, it's bull. The guy has had several of his set ups in championship cars. Oh, I forgot to mention. He is a mech engineer to boot. He be one of the Godfathers.

 

can we all say foot in mouth

 

Without being ugly to other members, I would listen to the folks like Ed, who actually know what is going on rather than rumor, gossip, and inuendo. Since it is known that Ed is in contact with Tony, and doing testing with Tony. I would suspect Ed probably knows a bit more than folks who are taking SWAGs at the production status of these heads. Tony has been straight with folks about these heads. So, why not give him the benefit of the doubt, and before you start crying about the LT1/LT4 heads, remember, that was before Tony came onboard with AFR.

 

No SWAGS here...

Get the price right.

 

After they get the product right. They'll be able to do that.

 

"After they get the product right. They'll be able to do that."

If there's a 1 as the first digit in the price of the complete unported 205 and 225s, I'll agree.

 

I think the 205's bare were posted by one of the sponsors as being ~$1595 or something like that.

 

Unacceptable.

$1595 complete, no porting. A full-book, ported 205 shouldn't be a penny over $2000 a set complete.

If Patriot can machine a head, assemble them, and sell them @ that price AFTER buying them from GM (wholesale or retail), then AFR sure as heck better be able to get close to the price after buying a bare casting from their supplier, machining it and assembling it.

Gouging or inefficiency, take your pick.

 

whatever they are the only one with truely aftermarket heads. they can charge whatever they want. most of the major sponsors have been charging 2500+ for a set of heads for years anyway. hell, they won't be able to keep up with how many people want them at 2500 complete anyway.

 

"whatever they are the only one with truely aftermarket heads. they can charge whatever they want. most of the major sponsors have been charging 2500+ for a set of heads for years anyway."

There are two kinds of companies in this world. There's the kind that thinks they can make a living trying to sell perceived value at higher prices, and the kind that decides that it is going to make the best product, at the best price. Eventually, the companies in category #2 kick the snot out of the companies in category #1.

Only aftermarket manufacturer or otherwise, you may or may not be willing to pay a premium for some extra perceived value. I may be too, but they sure as heck better up and blow everything else on the market out of the water to justify added price.

So far, the added value is fuzzy at best, and folks like yourself are lining up to defend a price structure that is obviously flawed in light of the available components from others.

 

I am somewhat familiar with the cost of a project like this. The tooling on a cylinder head can run $100K easily for the boxes. This is upfront money before you even have a finished product. Now that R&D has to be paid for and you do that by factoring it in on the cost of the heads, you have to. AFR has to make a profit or they would not be in business. The problem is in the performance industry is that for the end user it is usually a hobbie, so they want to get the best deal they can. I understand that. But please take this into thought, we have kids, mortgages, wants and needs like you. We offer our products, any company, at a fair price that allows us to make money, pay for start up cost, and allow us to do future products.

Now if I turned the tables and ask those of you that are doctors, "treat me for free and I'll tell my friends to come to you, or for those that are carpenters "build my house for your cost and I will supply the material and put a sign out front with Built by_________" or those that are computer guys, "hey make this program for be and I'll buy you a beer", I ask "would you do it"?

I've had steak at Ruth's Chris for $130 a plate and I have had steak at the Little Steak House for $9. I enjoyed both. . .both were worth the money.

Chris

 

Well, AFR's casting is far superior to GM's and they can't possibly get the same per-unit pricing GM can from the casting-cost standpoint. Don't forget, they had to pay for the design and setup on that also, so they have to amortize that in the cost.

I'm not defending a vendors decision to charge more, I think you have to be aware of all the "hidden" costs when coming out with a product. After they get to a certain volume, prices tend to normalize.

Why worry about this stuff until the product actually comes out, we see the real pricing and what they can actually do?

Definitely not trying to bust anyone's butt on this, so please take my comments as just objective thoughts/questions.

 

Wow, you are just too funny...

Do you own a cylinder head shop that is afraid of loosing business to the new AFR heads?

What credentials do you have in the manufacturing field, other than your obvious lack of knowledge, to make such ludicrous comments about what a product should cost???

What do you own for a business, that you know how much it costs to "manufacture" something like a totally new cylinder head from scratch? Enlighten us please...

Sounds to me like it's more rhetoric from someone who wants to eat hamburger and gets pissed off because others enjoy (and can afford) filet mignon...

Hey "X"
If you can't come up with enough money for the AFR heads, so be it. Admit they are out of you reach and let it be. There are those who have the means to buy them and reap the benefits of a "brand new" cylinder head design and "choose" not use re-ported stockers. Sounds like you would still be running "fuelie" heads on your old 350 bowtie engine because all those aftermarket heads are so overpriced? You should be thanking a company in the performance industry for getting a brand new LS cylinder head out there, instead of slamming them for their efforts.

You can eat at Burger King and I'll have my STEAK done medium well please...

Remember...
"The bitterness of poor quality remain long after the sweetness of low price are forgotten."

Ed

 

AMEN!!

 

That is CLASSIC! I love that one!

 

Nice another attack on someone for expressing their opinion/concerns on the AFR's.

PacerX has a CNC background and is pretty sharp about what CNC production costs are. He worked in with automotive CNC for many years based on what he said several months ago.

I might ask What creditals regarding CNC do you actually have Ed? PacerX is entitled to his opinion on what ported heads should cost just like your are entitled to yours. Likewise, I should ask again if you actually own your own flow bench.

As for the price of the bare AFR's I didn't think that was all that considering a pair of bare GM LS6 heads were ~$1100. The GMPP ported LS6's are ~$2000 so the ported AFR's don't seem that far off for a new product, provided they don't disappoint.

AFR can price their product however they please. Of course Pacer X can pay what ever he want's to for a set of heads.

I would still like to see some flow numbers on the AFR's with a 3.9 bore & 1 3/4 inch pipe as this has been glossed over and avoided many times. Tony could share that data if he wanted to. It would help promote the AFR's far better than the other data has. Intake numbers with LS6/LSX intakes would also really help with promoting the AFR's.