TRex Cam
so the guy that went from a tr230 to the trex and made more power everywhere over 5000rpms has a car that isnt fun to drive now? And in that case he should go slower? I highly doubt it
FormerVendor
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Yorba Linda, CA
Originally Posted by foff667
so the guy that went from a tr230 to the trex and made more power everywhere over 5000rpms has a car that isnt fun to drive now? And in that case he should go slower? I highly doubt it
Try to look at this with an open mind, if only for a minute. Stop thinking about "this" cam versus "that" cam. Surely you can recognize that a cam that produces high power over a wide range will perform better than a cam that produces high power only in a very narrow rpm range.
TECH Addict
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Central, MA
I definitely hear SSMan. The trend has been bigger and bigger cams in daily driver or moderate use street vehicles... When ideally, people would probably be a lot happier with something smaller.
I think the grey area causing the confusion is that we cant tell what each person intends to do with their car. Go get groceries with the kids and hit the track twice a year, or fire up the car to go win some money on Friday/Saturday nights.
I think the grey area causing the confusion is that we cant tell what each person intends to do with their car. Go get groceries with the kids and hit the track twice a year, or fire up the car to go win some money on Friday/Saturday nights.
ssman, not sure where you get the idea that this is a peaky cam and that it isnt good in the lower rpm's. i will drive mine every day if the weather is nice out. on the street i spent most of my time between 2000-4500 rpms, and it drives fine. and at anypoint in that rpm range i can stick it to the floor and slide all over the road so i will have to dissagree about it not having low end torque.im sure there are better low end cams out ther but they wont compare when you put your foot in it. 
i would make 40-50 more rwtq. with the cam between 3500-6500 than i did with the stock cam. and about 25more rwtq or so from 2500-3500.
And just like coach said. i can slap on some tires on friday night and go make some money if i ever get time to go to the track again.
i would make 40-50 more rwtq. with the cam between 3500-6500 than i did with the stock cam. and about 25more rwtq or so from 2500-3500.And just like coach said. i can slap on some tires on friday night and go make some money if i ever get time to go to the track again.
Originally Posted by SSMAN66
Perhaps the subjective nature of "fun to drive" is making this difficult for you to understand. Do you drive your car on the street, or is it a dedicated race car? If the primary purpose of your car is street driving, I will assume that the majority of your driving is not in excess of 5,000 rpm. If the new cam sacrificed a lot of power below 5,000 rpm, then the answer to both of your questions is yes.
Try to look at this with an open mind, if only for a minute. Stop thinking about "this" cam versus "that" cam. Surely you can recognize that a cam that produces high power over a wide range will perform better than a cam that produces high power only in a very narrow rpm range.
Try to look at this with an open mind, if only for a minute. Stop thinking about "this" cam versus "that" cam. Surely you can recognize that a cam that produces high power over a wide range will perform better than a cam that produces high power only in a very narrow rpm range.
230 trex
RPMS HP RPMS HP
5000-368 5300-382
5300-388 5600-402
5600-398 5900-417
5900-408 6200-425
6200-410 6500-429
6500-410 6800-430
6800-400 7100-420
avg-397 avg-415
so between the two cams with no other changes gained an avg of over 15hp across dan's upper powerband which with even a decent converter is where his engine will spend most of its time at the track...so tell me again how 397 avg hp is gonna beat 415 at the track? Now great a 224 cam might gain even more under 5000 but look at where your talking about under 5000rpms which hed barely if at all touch at the track. If there were one cam that would make more power than say the trex @ 2000 rpms as well as 6800 then your argument stands otherwise it just doesnt hold water.
FormerVendor
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Yorba Linda, CA
Originally Posted by foff667
ok how bout a comparison take Danz28 for example TR230 vs. Trex no other changes...just figure hes got a stall that when shifted @ 6800 for the 230 the shift extension will land it back at 5000rpms & with a shift of 7100 will drop back down to 5300...i used hp as the comparison # since hp is dervived off tq but most know hp so we'll go with that for now.
230 trex
RPMS HP RPMS HP
5000-368 5300-382
5300-388 5600-402
5600-398 5900-417
5900-408 6200-425
6200-410 6500-429
6500-410 6800-430
6800-400 7100-420
avg-397 avg-415
so between the two cams with no other changes gained an avg of over 15hp across dan's upper powerband which with even a decent converter is where his engine will spend most of its time at the track...so tell me again how 397 avg hp is gonna beat 415 at the track? Now great a 224 cam might gain even more under 5000 but look at where your talking about under 5000rpms which hed barely if at all touch at the track. If there were one cam that would make more power than say the trex @ 2000 rpms as well as 6800 then your argument stands otherwise it just doesnt hold water.
230 trex
RPMS HP RPMS HP
5000-368 5300-382
5300-388 5600-402
5600-398 5900-417
5900-408 6200-425
6200-410 6500-429
6500-410 6800-430
6800-400 7100-420
avg-397 avg-415
so between the two cams with no other changes gained an avg of over 15hp across dan's upper powerband which with even a decent converter is where his engine will spend most of its time at the track...so tell me again how 397 avg hp is gonna beat 415 at the track? Now great a 224 cam might gain even more under 5000 but look at where your talking about under 5000rpms which hed barely if at all touch at the track. If there were one cam that would make more power than say the trex @ 2000 rpms as well as 6800 then your argument stands otherwise it just doesnt hold water.
The second topic that seems to have grown from this is the power curve, which you still have not addressed. You stated that "power under the curve" is misused, but in a strange way your last line stated the point I'm trying to get you to understand. If an engine produces power over a broad rpm range it will perform better than the same engine producing power only in a narrow range.
I'm not even going to get pulled into a hypothetical internet dyno war ridden with uncontrolled variables.
Just out of curiosity - does your car have a TRex?
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Verdad Gallardo FormerVendor
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Yorba Linda, CA
Originally Posted by SMOKIN01TA
SSMAN66, did you read my post, i just addressed the lower rpm question of the trex, and yes i have one.
I'm not implying that it's a bad cam - I just don't think it's the best cam for the application that was originally inquired about. You spend a lot more time at the track I'm just curious if foff667 has one. I've been subjected to endless theories and hypotheticals based on everyone else's car, so I'm just curious if he has one - and if not, why.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 9,246
Likes: 3
From: Troy, AL
"...just figure hes got a stall that when shifted @ 6800 for the 230 the shift extension will land it back at 5000rpms & with a shift of 7100 will drop back down to 5300"
Just thought I'd point out that shift extension doesn't work like that...meaning that raising the shift point 100 RPMs doesn't raise the shift point by 100 RPMs. It varies by the converter and by the RPMs that we're talking about, among other things, but generally I'd say a 100 RPM increase in shift RPM is worth *maybe* a 33 RPM shift extension increase. So to get a 300 RPM increase in shift extension we'de need to increase the shift by at least 900 RPM.
Ok, carry on....
Just thought I'd point out that shift extension doesn't work like that...meaning that raising the shift point 100 RPMs doesn't raise the shift point by 100 RPMs. It varies by the converter and by the RPMs that we're talking about, among other things, but generally I'd say a 100 RPM increase in shift RPM is worth *maybe* a 33 RPM shift extension increase. So to get a 300 RPM increase in shift extension we'de need to increase the shift by at least 900 RPM.
Ok, carry on....
Originally Posted by SSMAN66
I'm just curious if foff667 has one. I've been subjected to endless theories and hypotheticals based on everyone else's car, so I'm just curious if he has one - and if not, why.
Originally Posted by Colonel
"...just figure hes got a stall that when shifted @ 6800 for the 230 the shift extension will land it back at 5000rpms & with a shift of 7100 will drop back down to 5300"
Just thought I'd point out that shift extension doesn't work like that...meaning that raising the shift point 100 RPMs doesn't raise the shift point by 100 RPMs. It varies by the converter and by the RPMs that we're talking about, among other things, but generally I'd say a 100 RPM increase in shift RPM is worth *maybe* a 33 RPM shift extension increase. So to get a 300 RPM increase in shift extension we'de need to increase the shift by at least 900 RPM.
Ok, carry on....
Just thought I'd point out that shift extension doesn't work like that...meaning that raising the shift point 100 RPMs doesn't raise the shift point by 100 RPMs. It varies by the converter and by the RPMs that we're talking about, among other things, but generally I'd say a 100 RPM increase in shift RPM is worth *maybe* a 33 RPM shift extension increase. So to get a 300 RPM increase in shift extension we'de need to increase the shift by at least 900 RPM.
Ok, carry on....
Originally Posted by SSMAN66
I saw your post I'm not implying that it's a bad cam - I just don't think it's the best cam for the application that was originally inquired about.
I'm not implying that it's a bad cam - I just don't think it's the best cam for the application that was originally inquired about.
Originally Posted by foff667
smokin ta whos got what? 4.30 gears & a manual will be able to handle it better and damn if i cant smoke or at least take on modded manual cars from a roll now WITH the gears I have. Oh and do you have the Trex cam and if not what are you running?
FormerVendor
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Yorba Linda, CA
Originally Posted by foff667
an no thats bs in your first post you say "For a street car you would be much happier with the performance of a cam that will maximize power from 2,500 - 6,000 than a cam that produces virtually no torque below 4,000 and peak power at 7,000." what were saying is in a race whether at the track or on the street from a roll the trex cam would in 99.9999% of its races beat a cam that makes more tq from 1000-4000 rpms because it wouldnt matter lol. In my car the trex would be dumb...even the cam i have in there now isnt the perfect match for my combo but I plan on getting gears & restalling my converter in the near future...a cam as large as a trex would probably have some issues as a DD but for smokin ta whos got what? 4.30 gears & a manual will be able to handle it better and damn if i cant smoke or at least take on modded manual cars from a roll now WITH the gears I have. Oh and do you have the Trex cam and if not what are you running?
I have a custom grind from Futral Motorsports.
Originally Posted by SSMAN66
There are many cars out there that produce more mid-range and higher peak #'s.
now i didnt say you hehe or cammed ls1's for that matter. TECH Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 9,246
Likes: 3
From: Troy, AL
Originally Posted by foff667
i realize that but for comparison sake i did it that way seeing 7 intervals and two cams that make peak 600 rpms away from each other i did 300rpm intervals...even if i had gone down to 5000 with the TREX it still made more avg power than the TR230 from 5000 on up.
But since we're on the subject, I run a little 224/220 cam that makes 400 RWHP+ all the way from 5350-6750. It has a nice wide power range and I stay completely in this range from a moment after launch until I let off the gas. There are plenty of setups out there that make ALOT more peak HP that will get waxed everytime by this little cam. They reach their big HP peak for a moment, they fall off quickly and have to shift, then they're out of their power and losing ground, slowly they get back into the power and they repeat the process. Meanwhile I'm at 400 RWHP or better...all the way down the track.
Make no mistake, I'm not downing big cams (my C5R engine probably has the biggest cam on this board but the rest of the car will be setup to match it.) I'm just saying that there is a proper way to use them to take advantage of what they do well....and then there are the ways that many people us them (undergeared, too much space between the tranny ratios, understalled, and shifted too early.) If you're not going to use them right, you might as well save yourself the headache, heartache, money, time, effort, and embarrasement by getting a cam better suited to your setup and needs. Last edited by Colonel; May 13, 2004 at 07:46 PM.
FormerVendor
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
From: Yorba Linda, CA
Originally Posted by Colonel
I wasn't disputing nor agreeing with anything that you or anyone else said. I just felt obliged to clear up this small, but sometimes important, bit of infomation.
But since we're on the subject, I run a little 224/220 cam that makes 400 RWHP+ all the way from 5350-6750. It has a nice wide power range and I stay completely in this range from a moment after launch until I let off the gas. There are plenty of setups out there that make ALOT more peak HP that will get waxed everytime by this little cam. They reach their big HP peak for a moment, they fall off quickly and have to shift, then they're out of their power and losing ground, slowly they get back into the power and they repeat the process. Meanwhile I'm at 400 RWHP or better...all the way down the track. Make no mistake, I'm not downing big cams (my C5R engine probably has the biggest cam on this board but the rest of the car will be setup to match it.) I'm just saying that there is a proper way to use them to take advantage of what they do well....and then there are the ways that many people us them (undergeared, too much space between the tranny ratios, understalled, and shifted too early.) If you're not going to use them right, you might as well save yourself the headache, heartache, money, time, effort, and embarrasement by getting a cam better suited to your setup and needs.
But since we're on the subject, I run a little 224/220 cam that makes 400 RWHP+ all the way from 5350-6750. It has a nice wide power range and I stay completely in this range from a moment after launch until I let off the gas. There are plenty of setups out there that make ALOT more peak HP that will get waxed everytime by this little cam. They reach their big HP peak for a moment, they fall off quickly and have to shift, then they're out of their power and losing ground, slowly they get back into the power and they repeat the process. Meanwhile I'm at 400 RWHP or better...all the way down the track.
Make no mistake, I'm not downing big cams (my C5R engine probably has the biggest cam on this board but the rest of the car will be setup to match it.) I'm just saying that there is a proper way to use them to take advantage of what they do well....and then there are the ways that many people us them (undergeared, too much space between the tranny ratios, understalled, and shifted too early.) If you're not going to use them right, you might as well save yourself the headache, heartache, money, time, effort, and embarrasement by getting a cam better suited to your setup and needs. A pristine example of what I'm saying
