cam install from hell
OK, so update:
The dots look pretty well aligned at first glance on the timing set.
I used the .050 events instead of peak lift as advised, and I'm coming up with 35 a 103 degree intake centerline, not a 112 like it should be. On the XER lobe, that puts the 050 IVC at 35 degrees and the 006 IVC at 59 degrees. Now, I'm trying really hard to ignore DCR, but I checked it anyway, and it is 8.68. So, at least, I'm thinking that 35 degree IVC event explains the peak torque at lower RPM and the double hump (if not also the detonation with 91 octane). Side comment, but I don't have the duration I should have unless it's a preload issue.
On a whim, I threw the stock cam back in to measure it, and I'm getting 110-111 ICL on the stock cam which should have 119 ICL.
I highly doubt I'd have two cams both off by 9 degrees advance. So, I'm wondering if there is a way to verify the timing set. I also still need to pull the oil pump and see if the crank key is partially sheared.
I don't remember it being off when I installed it, but I could have easily measured it wrong back then (or just now). I also ran an experiment timing it off by a tooth just to see how that would affect it, and it changed the timing by 18 degrees, so I'm pretty sure that's not it. Also, this is a stock, non-adjustable timing set with only one crank keyway.
So, I think I'm getting to the dyno curve's odd behavior. Would this also cause the severe pinging I was getting as well? I'm thinking high cylinder pressures, 91 octane, and phoenix desert heat makes a plausible explanation.
Forum searches are consistently coming up with "hot plugs" and "oil mist" as top causes for detonation, so when I put it back together, it'll have a mighty mouse and a set of colder NGK's
The dots look pretty well aligned at first glance on the timing set.
I used the .050 events instead of peak lift as advised, and I'm coming up with 35 a 103 degree intake centerline, not a 112 like it should be. On the XER lobe, that puts the 050 IVC at 35 degrees and the 006 IVC at 59 degrees. Now, I'm trying really hard to ignore DCR, but I checked it anyway, and it is 8.68. So, at least, I'm thinking that 35 degree IVC event explains the peak torque at lower RPM and the double hump (if not also the detonation with 91 octane). Side comment, but I don't have the duration I should have unless it's a preload issue.
On a whim, I threw the stock cam back in to measure it, and I'm getting 110-111 ICL on the stock cam which should have 119 ICL.
I highly doubt I'd have two cams both off by 9 degrees advance. So, I'm wondering if there is a way to verify the timing set. I also still need to pull the oil pump and see if the crank key is partially sheared.
I don't remember it being off when I installed it, but I could have easily measured it wrong back then (or just now). I also ran an experiment timing it off by a tooth just to see how that would affect it, and it changed the timing by 18 degrees, so I'm pretty sure that's not it. Also, this is a stock, non-adjustable timing set with only one crank keyway.
So, I think I'm getting to the dyno curve's odd behavior. Would this also cause the severe pinging I was getting as well? I'm thinking high cylinder pressures, 91 octane, and phoenix desert heat makes a plausible explanation.
Forum searches are consistently coming up with "hot plugs" and "oil mist" as top causes for detonation, so when I put it back together, it'll have a mighty mouse and a set of colder NGK's
I read on this forum awhile back about a guy who found his stock timing gear was off by quite a bit,something like 8 or 10 degrees,can't remember exactly.
assuming you measured correctly,i think you found your problem.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 10,450
Likes: 1,873
From: My own internal universe
if it was a tooth off,i would think it'd run like crap(well,worse than what it is now)
I read on this forum awhile back about a guy who found his stock timing gear was off by quite a bit,something like 8 or 10 degrees,can't remember exactly.
assuming you measured correctly,i think you found your problem.
I read on this forum awhile back about a guy who found his stock timing gear was off by quite a bit,something like 8 or 10 degrees,can't remember exactly.
assuming you measured correctly,i think you found your problem.
I checked DCR on being a whole tooth off, and it would have been over 9. I don't think we would have been able to tune the knock out with that much pressure.
Unfortunately, I'm at a stand still, because I have to leave town, but I feel better knowing it has happened to one other person at least.
Thanks, that makes me feel a whole lot better about it. Especially since the crank key checked out OK, if this wasn't it, I don't know what I would have done other than just replace the whole short block, cause the only thing left would be the crank is keyed wrong.
I checked DCR on being a whole tooth off, and it would have been over 9. I don't think we would have been able to tune the knock out with that much pressure.
Unfortunately, I'm at a stand still, because I have to leave town, but I feel better knowing it has happened to one other person at least.
I checked DCR on being a whole tooth off, and it would have been over 9. I don't think we would have been able to tune the knock out with that much pressure.
Unfortunately, I'm at a stand still, because I have to leave town, but I feel better knowing it has happened to one other person at least.
I work in the automotive aftermarket,and I've seen some stupid stuff come out of the OEMs over the years,so i guess it shouldn't surprise me to see that..sucks to hear bro.
In 1982 I bought a brand new LS-7 454 crate engine from Chevrolet...
I saved for months...$2500.00 at my local dealership...anyway, replaced a home built LS-6 in my 65 GTO with my new LS-7...what a slug. Would not get out of it's own way...I was sick. I tried everything I could think of...I even put the old engine back in because I thought maybe it was all in my head...nope, new LS-7 was still a slug.
Anyway, after I calmed down, and started checking timing chain, gears, cam...found all the tolerances stacked up against me to the tune of -12 retarded...
Still have that rig today, runs crazy hard to this day. I guess my point is...anything is possible. (yeah, I know..."cool story bro")...
Keep us posted.
I saved for months...$2500.00 at my local dealership...anyway, replaced a home built LS-6 in my 65 GTO with my new LS-7...what a slug. Would not get out of it's own way...I was sick. I tried everything I could think of...I even put the old engine back in because I thought maybe it was all in my head...nope, new LS-7 was still a slug.
Anyway, after I calmed down, and started checking timing chain, gears, cam...found all the tolerances stacked up against me to the tune of -12 retarded...
Still have that rig today, runs crazy hard to this day. I guess my point is...anything is possible. (yeah, I know..."cool story bro")...
Keep us posted.
In 1982 I bought a brand new LS-7 454 crate engine from Chevrolet...
I saved for months...$2500.00 at my local dealership...anyway, replaced a home built LS-6 in my 65 GTO with my new LS-7...what a slug. Would not get out of it's own way...I was sick. I tried everything I could think of...I even put the old engine back in because I thought maybe it was all in my head...nope, new LS-7 was still a slug.
Anyway, after I calmed down, and started checking timing chain, gears, cam...found all the tolerances stacked up against me to the tune of -12 retarded...
Still have that rig today, runs crazy hard to this day. I guess my point is...anything is possible. (yeah, I know..."cool story bro")...
Keep us posted.
I saved for months...$2500.00 at my local dealership...anyway, replaced a home built LS-6 in my 65 GTO with my new LS-7...what a slug. Would not get out of it's own way...I was sick. I tried everything I could think of...I even put the old engine back in because I thought maybe it was all in my head...nope, new LS-7 was still a slug.
Anyway, after I calmed down, and started checking timing chain, gears, cam...found all the tolerances stacked up against me to the tune of -12 retarded...
Still have that rig today, runs crazy hard to this day. I guess my point is...anything is possible. (yeah, I know..."cool story bro")...
Keep us posted.
It was similar for me just not quite as bad as your situation... Cam itself went in real smooth. Timing was easy to get set up. Valve springs were hell, not as many mishaps as you have had but I still will now forever dread even touching those things. Not a fun time at all.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 10,450
Likes: 1,873
From: My own internal universe
OK so at long last I have an update to this mess, and I'm starting to feel like it's coming out of it.
I kept paying attention to forums and how cars behave, and I became more and more convinced that the cam numbers on the box didn't match the actual cam - almost like someone threw the wrong cam in the box.
Based on that assessment, I went with my original intake/exhaust general targets and even threw a thread out there to get opinions on a few cams. I was really torn between Kip's Titan 4 and Martin's SNS 2. Both right around 227/233, but Kip's has 3.5 degrees of overlap and Martin's has 10.5. Kip ground me a custom cam that split the valve events between the two, so I ended up with 227/236 112+3, which has 7.5 degrees of overlap. I've heard such good things about the T4 and SNS2, that I'm very confident this cam is going to be fun to drive.
I also got a cloyes 3220 NON ADJUSTABLE timing set. I didn't want to take a chance on installer error. Last night around 7, I started everything, and it went along swimmingly until I had to pull that MF-ing oil pick up tube bolt. ***OK, Why the fork GM couldn't have used the TOP bolt hole is beyond me
*** Goosefrahbah.... Basically, 90 minutes from removing the air cleaner to pulling the cam out. I lowered the oil pan about a half inch and ended up dropping the bolt into the oil pan, but was able to fish it our with a fiber-optic type magnetic tool in about five minutes. After removing the timing set from the car, I compared everything to the new cloyes set, and it was a perfect match, which leads even more to the cam.
Then, I stood Kip's cam next to the one I pulled out. Now, the ICL between the two is supposed to be only three degrees different, and the ECL only one degree different. Well, when I lined them up by the pins, the lobes were obviously off. So as another check, I lined up the lobes, and sure enough the pins were at different clock positions. I even asked my 17 year old daughter to look at it with me to make sure I wasn't imagining it. Kip puts all his on a cam doctor, so I'm positive it's right.
After horsing around with all that, I threw Kip's cam in and verified ICL - 109 degrees via peak lift AND .050 to .050. Rotated the engine over a few times to install rockers and verify timing alignment, and it lines back up dot to dot.
So, tonight I "just" have to install the front cover, new front main seal, and then try to get the oil pan to not leak after install, valve covers, water pump, damper, belts, air cleaner, and fire it up. Borrowing a friend's Kent Moore LS engine alignment tool set. I'm more than half tempted to pull the transmission to realign the rear cover as well, but I also really want to get this on the road and see if the cam alone was enough to correct the pinging.
Thanks for everyone's help and feedback
I kept paying attention to forums and how cars behave, and I became more and more convinced that the cam numbers on the box didn't match the actual cam - almost like someone threw the wrong cam in the box.
Based on that assessment, I went with my original intake/exhaust general targets and even threw a thread out there to get opinions on a few cams. I was really torn between Kip's Titan 4 and Martin's SNS 2. Both right around 227/233, but Kip's has 3.5 degrees of overlap and Martin's has 10.5. Kip ground me a custom cam that split the valve events between the two, so I ended up with 227/236 112+3, which has 7.5 degrees of overlap. I've heard such good things about the T4 and SNS2, that I'm very confident this cam is going to be fun to drive.
I also got a cloyes 3220 NON ADJUSTABLE timing set. I didn't want to take a chance on installer error. Last night around 7, I started everything, and it went along swimmingly until I had to pull that MF-ing oil pick up tube bolt. ***OK, Why the fork GM couldn't have used the TOP bolt hole is beyond me
*** Goosefrahbah.... Basically, 90 minutes from removing the air cleaner to pulling the cam out. I lowered the oil pan about a half inch and ended up dropping the bolt into the oil pan, but was able to fish it our with a fiber-optic type magnetic tool in about five minutes. After removing the timing set from the car, I compared everything to the new cloyes set, and it was a perfect match, which leads even more to the cam.Then, I stood Kip's cam next to the one I pulled out. Now, the ICL between the two is supposed to be only three degrees different, and the ECL only one degree different. Well, when I lined them up by the pins, the lobes were obviously off. So as another check, I lined up the lobes, and sure enough the pins were at different clock positions. I even asked my 17 year old daughter to look at it with me to make sure I wasn't imagining it. Kip puts all his on a cam doctor, so I'm positive it's right.
After horsing around with all that, I threw Kip's cam in and verified ICL - 109 degrees via peak lift AND .050 to .050. Rotated the engine over a few times to install rockers and verify timing alignment, and it lines back up dot to dot.
So, tonight I "just" have to install the front cover, new front main seal, and then try to get the oil pan to not leak after install, valve covers, water pump, damper, belts, air cleaner, and fire it up. Borrowing a friend's Kent Moore LS engine alignment tool set. I'm more than half tempted to pull the transmission to realign the rear cover as well, but I also really want to get this on the road and see if the cam alone was enough to correct the pinging.
Thanks for everyone's help and feedback
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 10,450
Likes: 1,873
From: My own internal universe
All wrapped up. While under there I pulled the dust covers to vent the bellhousing somewhat. Borrowed a friend's alignment toolkit and realigned the front cover, new seals, etc.
Ran the starter with fuel pump unplugged in 8 second spurts until I got oil pressure. Fired it up, and immediately noticed two things - sewing machine noise is gone and this thing sounds nasty good.
On the ramps to burp the cooling system and then for a test drive. Not one ping. Even lugging 4th gear. Not wanting to screw around on a brand new cam, I haven't pushed it yet, but I'm highly confident it'll carry power well past 5k unlike before.
Ran the starter with fuel pump unplugged in 8 second spurts until I got oil pressure. Fired it up, and immediately noticed two things - sewing machine noise is gone and this thing sounds nasty good.
On the ramps to burp the cooling system and then for a test drive. Not one ping. Even lugging 4th gear. Not wanting to screw around on a brand new cam, I haven't pushed it yet, but I'm highly confident it'll carry power well past 5k unlike before.
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Looks good man hopefully that cures the issue, maybe I missed it in here but where did the original cam come from? I wonder if you could send it back to kip and see what the cam dr reads it as
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 10,450
Likes: 1,873
From: My own internal universe
It was a lightly used comp. and that is the plan - to send it back to kip for the Dr read out. Kip also said he will freshen up the grind so I can sell it and recoup some cost. Fwiw the number on the cam that came out doesn't match the serial number on the box
All wrapped up. While under there I pulled the dust covers to vent the bellhousing somewhat. Borrowed a friend's alignment toolkit and realigned the front cover, new seals, etc.
Ran the starter with fuel pump unplugged in 8 second spurts until I got oil pressure. Fired it up, and immediately noticed two things - sewing machine noise is gone and this thing sounds nasty good.
On the ramps to burp the cooling system and then for a test drive. Not one ping. Even lugging 4th gear. Not wanting to screw around on a brand new cam, I haven't pushed it yet, but I'm highly confident it'll carry power well past 5k unlike before.
Ran the starter with fuel pump unplugged in 8 second spurts until I got oil pressure. Fired it up, and immediately noticed two things - sewing machine noise is gone and this thing sounds nasty good.
On the ramps to burp the cooling system and then for a test drive. Not one ping. Even lugging 4th gear. Not wanting to screw around on a brand new cam, I haven't pushed it yet, but I'm highly confident it'll carry power well past 5k unlike before.
Staging Lane
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
From: Mn
Patience pay's off...I found a C5-R motor and threw it into my first Gen V along with basically a BTR stage 2 cam two months ago and still haven't been able to enjoy it yet...after a new cam sprocket 58x, new radiator, the clutch master won't bleed..so I said F it, and sent it to a shop today...lol have fun rippin on that after your break in miles 
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 10,450
Likes: 1,873
From: My own internal universe
200 miles on it now. I've let her rip a couple of times. Hit 6500 rpm effortlessly. Pulls like a train from 3000 up. Feels like it's still learning idle, especially when AC runs. So much more fun to drive. And all that's with all the timing still pulled out from the old cam. Even at 6500 was still pulling hard but I got nervous and shifted.
Got some more odds and ends to clean up and then freshen the tune and hit the dyno. I'm expecting to see a nice flat curve. I'll post the after dyno for comparison once I've got it.
Got some more odds and ends to clean up and then freshen the tune and hit the dyno. I'm expecting to see a nice flat curve. I'll post the after dyno for comparison once I've got it.