7000rpm – LS6 rockers with trunion upgrade or Yella Terra non-adjustable roller rocke
01-11-2016, 12:32 PM
#21
I didn't do it myself, but I was there with my engine building helping.
We pulled the pistons and rods out entirely and measured everything. We torqued the rod bolts to the rods and measured the distortion, then measured the crank. You have to do it this way or else you don't know if the rods need to be resized from the extra clamping force. They had to be resized for me.
I wanted to believe I could just slap the ARP rod bolts on, but science is math and math is science. If you get the katech rod bolts, you can just slap them on and not worry as they don't increase clamp load but are rather just a stronger bolt.
We pulled the pistons and rods out entirely and measured everything. We torqued the rod bolts to the rods and measured the distortion, then measured the crank. You have to do it this way or else you don't know if the rods need to be resized from the extra clamping force. They had to be resized for me.
I wanted to believe I could just slap the ARP rod bolts on, but science is math and math is science. If you get the katech rod bolts, you can just slap them on and not worry as they don't increase clamp load but are rather just a stronger bolt.
01-11-2016, 01:00 PM
#22
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I didn't do it myself, but I was there with my engine building helping.
We pulled the pistons and rods out entirely and measured everything. We torqued the rod bolts to the rods and measured the distortion, then measured the crank. You have to do it this way or else you don't know if the rods need to be resized from the extra clamping force. They had to be resized for me.
I wanted to believe I could just slap the ARP rod bolts on, but science is math and math is science. If you get the katech rod bolts, you can just slap them on and not worry as they don't increase clamp load but are rather just a stronger bolt.
We pulled the pistons and rods out entirely and measured everything. We torqued the rod bolts to the rods and measured the distortion, then measured the crank. You have to do it this way or else you don't know if the rods need to be resized from the extra clamping force. They had to be resized for me.
I wanted to believe I could just slap the ARP rod bolts on, but science is math and math is science. If you get the katech rod bolts, you can just slap them on and not worry as they don't increase clamp load but are rather just a stronger bolt.
One thing I dont understand is how you can increase clamp force without increasing the torque. If you torque the bolts to XX ft-lb then the clamp force will be the same? I dont see how they would be different?
But I agree, you always should check clearances when putting something together for the first time, but I dont necessarily agree with a motor that is already been together for a long while.
I'm trying to keep myself from pulling the pistons out this summer because if I do I will have them cut a little and then the heads decked then its just more moneys. lol
thank you!
01-11-2016, 01:02 PM
#23
+1 on the thicker pushrods. Your 5/16" pushrods probably have 080 wall thickness. The 11/32 mantons run 125 wall thickness.
If you have stock valve guides, use the stock rockers. If you have aftermarket guides, the YT will be better for preventing scrubbing. If the stamp on the YT is centered don't use them. If it is offset, they are ok.
On the lifters, you can get more power with shorter travel lifters. Best would be LLSR. If you want hydraulic, then Johnson short travel with link bar and axle oiling. Not saying anything about LS7 lifters. But your OP said you wanted every pony you could get.
With the valve train you want heavy on the back side and light on the valve side. Don't worry about the extra lifter and pushrod weight. Do worry about lighter valves - particularly the intake.
If you have stock valve guides, use the stock rockers. If you have aftermarket guides, the YT will be better for preventing scrubbing. If the stamp on the YT is centered don't use them. If it is offset, they are ok.
On the lifters, you can get more power with shorter travel lifters. Best would be LLSR. If you want hydraulic, then Johnson short travel with link bar and axle oiling. Not saying anything about LS7 lifters. But your OP said you wanted every pony you could get.
With the valve train you want heavy on the back side and light on the valve side. Don't worry about the extra lifter and pushrod weight. Do worry about lighter valves - particularly the intake.
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01-11-2016, 01:29 PM
#24
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A lot to reply to from a phone. So I'll sort of post comments without quoting. Hope that's ok.
On the lifters, your entry level link bars are far better than ls7. Even your entry level Johnson 2116 would be a great option to gain some power and valve control
On the pushrods, not sure why someone would want reduced stiffness. You want the stiffness to avoid pole vaulting the valves. I daily drive the 11/32 X 125 wall manton rods and YT lifters so no issues for starvation there. Stock LS6 oil pump.
The lighter valves would help make up for the increased tip weight of the YT. I would go with the YT with aftermarket guides. The roller tip helps prevent scrubbing side to side of the valve stem, but you have to take time to get the proper height. There is a how to for checking wipe pattern you can read through on this.
The YT has the ratio stamped into it. If the stamp is centered, it is a first gen, which had some failures. If the stamp is offset, it is a third gen, which has the flaws corrected.
If I missed something let me know.
On the lifters, your entry level link bars are far better than ls7. Even your entry level Johnson 2116 would be a great option to gain some power and valve control
On the pushrods, not sure why someone would want reduced stiffness. You want the stiffness to avoid pole vaulting the valves. I daily drive the 11/32 X 125 wall manton rods and YT lifters so no issues for starvation there. Stock LS6 oil pump.
The lighter valves would help make up for the increased tip weight of the YT. I would go with the YT with aftermarket guides. The roller tip helps prevent scrubbing side to side of the valve stem, but you have to take time to get the proper height. There is a how to for checking wipe pattern you can read through on this.
The YT has the ratio stamped into it. If the stamp is centered, it is a first gen, which had some failures. If the stamp is offset, it is a third gen, which has the flaws corrected.
If I missed something let me know.
01-11-2016, 02:13 PM
#25
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the .105" PRs are going to have a 45% larger cross sectional rod than the 5/16" .080" wall.
I will work on getting some of the link lifters. What about comp cams, vs morel vs johnson? again, thinking like $500 max or so.
I did some math and the .105" rods have the same metal cross sectional area as the 11/32 rods, except have a MUCH larger oil passage (stock). I was thinking these, or going with manton's 3/8 x .095" or .120" wall. again, the .095" wall is the same metal cross section as the 11/32 rods, but about 2x the oil passage area. or the .120" wall rods as these are much thicker metal cross section, but have an oil passage area between the OE ones and the narrow 11/32 ones. The big quesiton: will 3/8" pushrods fit the heads, block, lifters, and rocker?
The heads are off the motor, so hogging out a passage way would be cake. the short block is in the car so doing any cutting on that will NOT happen.
Any thoughts on this?
My YT's DO HAVE an offset ratio stamping. With a lot of lift like this I think they will really save the valve guides in the heads. Especially since they are new, I would rather not wear them out quick.
I will work on getting some of the link lifters. What about comp cams, vs morel vs johnson? again, thinking like $500 max or so.
I did some math and the .105" rods have the same metal cross sectional area as the 11/32 rods, except have a MUCH larger oil passage (stock). I was thinking these, or going with manton's 3/8 x .095" or .120" wall. again, the .095" wall is the same metal cross section as the 11/32 rods, but about 2x the oil passage area. or the .120" wall rods as these are much thicker metal cross section, but have an oil passage area between the OE ones and the narrow 11/32 ones. The big quesiton: will 3/8" pushrods fit the heads, block, lifters, and rocker?
The heads are off the motor, so hogging out a passage way would be cake. the short block is in the car so doing any cutting on that will NOT happen.
Any thoughts on this?
My YT's DO HAVE an offset ratio stamping. With a lot of lift like this I think they will really save the valve guides in the heads. Especially since they are new, I would rather not wear them out quick.
01-11-2016, 02:29 PM
#26
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If you have the option to go 3/8 you should, IMO.
I'm partial to Johnson lifters, but there is nothing wrong with morel. Keep in mind that shorter travel. A $200 price difference could be worth 10-15 hp.
Don't order the rods until after you get your wipe pattern figured out. Say you decide to shin the pedestals .060" for the wipe pattern. If you already ordered the rods, they'll be short make sense?
I'm partial to Johnson lifters, but there is nothing wrong with morel. Keep in mind that shorter travel. A $200 price difference could be worth 10-15 hp.
Don't order the rods until after you get your wipe pattern figured out. Say you decide to shin the pedestals .060" for the wipe pattern. If you already ordered the rods, they'll be short make sense?
01-11-2016, 02:30 PM
#27
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Oh and yes, the YT is the better choice given your setup.
01-11-2016, 02:44 PM
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maybe I will order a single 3/8" cheapie and see if it will fit.
yes, I will measure properly for the centering the wipe pattern.
Are all Johnson lifters that are "slow leakdown" a short travel? I dont see anything on the ones you recommended about short travel or oiling?
http://www.briantooleyracing.com/joh...s-2116lsr.html
I'm all for ordering ^^ if they are that much better...$80 diff is fine, those $980 ones though, not so fine. lol
yes, I will measure properly for the centering the wipe pattern.
Are all Johnson lifters that are "slow leakdown" a short travel? I dont see anything on the ones you recommended about short travel or oiling?
http://www.briantooleyracing.com/joh...s-2116lsr.html
I'm all for ordering ^^ if they are that much better...$80 diff is fine, those $980 ones though, not so fine. lol
01-11-2016, 02:56 PM
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maybe I will order a single 3/8" cheapie and see if it will fit. yes, I will measure properly for the centering the wipe pattern. Are all Johnson lifters that are "slow leakdown" a short travel? I dont see anything on the ones you recommended about short travel or oiling? http://www.briantooleyracing.com/joh...s-2116lsr.html I'm all for ordering ^^ if they are that much better...$80 diff is fine, those $980 ones though, not so fine. lol
01-11-2016, 02:59 PM
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wait... cam motion has them for $750, but at the brian tooley site they have the same thing for $580? am I missing something?
They are the same lifters right?
are these 2116LSR lifters a short travel one? Also earlier you mentioned about oiling issues with high lift cams and stock style lifters, can you elaborate more on that, and do these solve that issue?
They are the same lifters right?
are these 2116LSR lifters a short travel one? Also earlier you mentioned about oiling issues with high lift cams and stock style lifters, can you elaborate more on that, and do these solve that issue?
Last edited by nskyline34; 01-11-2016 at 03:07 PM.
01-11-2016, 03:26 PM
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wait... cam motion has them for $750, but at the brian tooley site they have the same thing for $580? am I missing something? They are the same lifters right? are these 2116LSR lifters a short travel one? Also earlier you mentioned about oiling issues with high lift cams and stock style lifters, can you elaborate more on that, and do these solve that issue?
There is no oiling "issue" but the dedicated axle oiling is an added feature to help reliability in severe duty applications. Sort of up to you if it's worth it. Since I DD mine, I got them. The 2116LSR will be a phenomenal upgrade over stock in terms of power and reliability. I want to say they have 090 total travel vs 058 for the short travel and 170 for the LS7. I might be off a bit on those numbers, but they are close.
01-11-2016, 03:33 PM
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those ST ones were the spendy $980 ones I was speaking about.
Ok that sounds good. I will do some reading and try to pick up a set of the 2116LSR's you mentioned.
how worth it, or not worth it, are these shaft rockers:
https://www.texas-speed.com/p-1219-c...1-rockers.aspx
I feel like the full shaft ones arent going to be that much better than my YT's since they are 2 per shaft? I get that having all on 1 shaft is BEST but idk about 3x the price better. (for my application, not for 8000+ rpm)
Ok that sounds good. I will do some reading and try to pick up a set of the 2116LSR's you mentioned.
how worth it, or not worth it, are these shaft rockers:
https://www.texas-speed.com/p-1219-c...1-rockers.aspx
I feel like the full shaft ones arent going to be that much better than my YT's since they are 2 per shaft? I get that having all on 1 shaft is BEST but idk about 3x the price better. (for my application, not for 8000+ rpm)
Last edited by nskyline34; 01-11-2016 at 03:46 PM.
01-11-2016, 03:38 PM
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01-11-2016, 04:01 PM
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Thats basically my goal. 500whp on stock LS6 short block and spend less than 5k...well i'm at 7k so far, but the bottom end is still stock! lol I figured more R's would help get some power since the cam will keep climbing.
thoughts on a heavy pushrod vs a light one when it comes to valve float and high R's and valve train stability?
thoughts on a heavy pushrod vs a light one when it comes to valve float and high R's and valve train stability?
01-11-2016, 04:10 PM
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Thats basically my goal. 500whp on stock LS6 short block and spend less than 5k...well i'm at 7k so far, but the bottom end is still stock! lol I figured more R's would help get some power since the cam will keep climbing. thoughts on a heavy pushrod vs a light one when it comes to valve float and high R's and valve train stability?
1. You are on the 1.0, not the 1.7 side, so the distances velocities and accelerations are far lower vs the valve itself.
2. A deflected pushrod is a pole vault, which causes valve float. A 3/8" pushrod will have no issue going 7500, and will actually reduce chances of valve float.
01-12-2016, 01:32 PM
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Got a good education from the guys at Manton pushrods.
Posting this so hopefully someone in the future will use it.
the 11/32 pushrod has a inner diameter ID of .10375" compared to an OE or 5/16 .080" wall pushrod has an ID of .1525". to me this was trouble for oiling the topend of the motor. WRONG - there are restricters on the ends of the pushrods (OE and others) that restricts it down to .062". as long as the ID is greater than .062" there will be no change in oiling!
Posting this so hopefully someone in the future will use it.
the 11/32 pushrod has a inner diameter ID of .10375" compared to an OE or 5/16 .080" wall pushrod has an ID of .1525". to me this was trouble for oiling the topend of the motor. WRONG - there are restricters on the ends of the pushrods (OE and others) that restricts it down to .062". as long as the ID is greater than .062" there will be no change in oiling!
01-13-2016, 09:57 AM
#40
They better have a .105 wall. It says it right on them in gold etching. They cost almost twice as much as the .080's. Ill be measuring now an will be back with the results. I would think an extra .025 per wall(.50 total) of hardened steel Would bring quite a bit of stability. .160+28%=.204 so more than 28% thicker.
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