quest for max 'free' hp question
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 533
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From: South East AZ
quest for max 'free' hp question so Ive been doing a lot of research for my next engine build and really want everything to work together perfectly to get the most out of it without sacrificing longevity. so i.e. lightweight parts, reduced friction, and keeping combustion gases in the combustion chamber and not in the crank case. so in my search I remember some tech info that I watched on an episode of engine power from plowerblock on spike. In this episode (this was a year or two ago) they talked about gas porting pistons, which took me days to figure out how to word that for the internet to understand what I was talking about, and also cutting a light grooved 'x' into the sides of pistons to reduce drag in the cylinders from oil. this 'x' channels the scraped oil from the cylinders down and doesn't allow oil into the combustion process which reduces the octane and hp potential. they used a special jig that can be purchased that allows for a precise groove to be cut without damaging the piston be removing too much material.
does anyone know what I am talking about? this is driving me crazy!!!!!
does anyone know what I am talking about? this is driving me crazy!!!!!
I've seen the concept executed however have no direct experience so I won't debate the actual value of it. What I will say is that typically if something like that improves performance/efficiency by an amount that offsets the cost/potential negatives, it would be present in some way at the OEM level and likely more present in the aftermarket. Feels like we are in the weeds of diminishing returns on this subject but I'd like to hear from those with hands-on experience.
If it was worth anything, everyone would be doing it. The X groove in the skirts are only done by DSS to my knowledge, and they don't exactly have the greatest reputation.
Gas porting is a waste for a street car IMO. You see all the carbon that can build up around the pistons. That clogs up the gas ports in a street car engine application that spends time idling at stop lights and in parking lots/drive ways.
Gas porting is a waste for a street car IMO. You see all the carbon that can build up around the pistons. That clogs up the gas ports in a street car engine application that spends time idling at stop lights and in parking lots/drive ways.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 533
Likes: 1
From: South East AZ
This is not a matter of debate fellas. I am asking where can this jig I am in search of can be found. it is a proven tactic that has been found to free up power by reducing parasitic drag. it is not commonly found in aftermarket applications during the manufacturing because it adds cost and for most who are just trying to build a street pounder from stop light to stop light is isn't necessary. it is certainly not meant for oem applications because of 90% percent of vehicles driven by everyday drivers don't see many rpms runs above 3 or 4 grand. most daily driving is 1500-2500 rpm range.
as far as efficiency at the oem level, there are several things that can be done to improve that. that's why the oem market is starting to improve on things to catch up with the aftermarket. hell just throwing on a catch can improves efficiency by not allowing oil to recirculated back into the intake system diluting the power potential of gasoline.
depending on how you do the gas ports then yes it can carbon up. from my understanding if you do the horizontal ports it allows high pressure combustion gases to force the piston rings against the cylinder walls reducing blow by. as the combustion gases are expelled then the pressure reduces on the top ring and therefore reduces friction enhancing efficiency.
as far as efficiency at the oem level, there are several things that can be done to improve that. that's why the oem market is starting to improve on things to catch up with the aftermarket. hell just throwing on a catch can improves efficiency by not allowing oil to recirculated back into the intake system diluting the power potential of gasoline.
depending on how you do the gas ports then yes it can carbon up. from my understanding if you do the horizontal ports it allows high pressure combustion gases to force the piston rings against the cylinder walls reducing blow by. as the combustion gases are expelled then the pressure reduces on the top ring and therefore reduces friction enhancing efficiency.
The only question you asked is if anyone knew what you were talking about. The short answer was yes and opinion of value in the tech is low. But it sounds like you are an expert on the technology. I hope you find your jig and prove it to us.
If you don't want debate or opinion, the Internet is the wrong place to be posting stuff like this.
If you don't want debate or opinion, the Internet is the wrong place to be posting stuff like this.
This is not a matter of debate fellas. I am asking where can this jig I am in search of can be found. it is a proven tactic that has been found to free up power by reducing parasitic drag. it is not commonly found in aftermarket applications during the manufacturing because it adds cost and for most who are just trying to build a street pounder from stop light to stop light is isn't necessary. it is certainly not meant for oem applications because of 90% percent of vehicles driven by everyday drivers don't see many rpms runs above 3 or 4 grand. most daily driving is 1500-2500 rpm range.
depending on how you do the gas ports then yes it can carbon up. from my understanding if you do the horizontal ports it allows high pressure combustion gases to force the piston rings against the cylinder walls reducing blow by. as the combustion gases are expelled then the pressure reduces on the top ring and therefore reduces friction enhancing efficiency.
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TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2017
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Your wasting time with those petty mods thats will probably do more bad than good. (It all depends WHO does it) I recommend building a lighter stronger valvetrain and good springs, your engine will love you. Also, use good oil like maxlife full syntheic and good filters, otherwise you may get annoyances like lifter noise when you put a lot of miles on the car. Get the block cleaned and honed, get heads done, use high quality materials for everything. Its hard to balance reliable and max performance, but if you are willing to conlromise, you could build a car if you do it smart, faster and more reliable than stock.
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 533
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From: South East AZ
and again I wasn't asking for opinions. people think that just cuz youre on social media, forums, or what have you that their opinion is king and that the whole world needs to hear what you have to say. I didn't ask for opinions so therefore I don't care what you think will or will not work. what I did ask was if anyone knew what I was asking about, simple yes or no, and what is the tool that was used. the whole point of searching for power is to try out different techniques that can reduce friction and drag. how much it net, or if any at all remains to be seen.
will hurt anything, more then likely not.
could it be beneficial, potentially.
why the **** am I even on here defending myself to you *****? maybe one day after I build my damn engine and if it happens to **** out quick cuz of this then I will look back and say "well they were right". if it lasts a good damn while and with a number of combination of items together put out big numbers and be streetable, then I will find you and say "look at this".
the only way to find out is to do it. plz don't post anymore bashing remarks.
will hurt anything, more then likely not.
could it be beneficial, potentially.
why the **** am I even on here defending myself to you *****? maybe one day after I build my damn engine and if it happens to **** out quick cuz of this then I will look back and say "well they were right". if it lasts a good damn while and with a number of combination of items together put out big numbers and be streetable, then I will find you and say "look at this".
the only way to find out is to do it. plz don't post anymore bashing remarks.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 533
Likes: 1
From: South East AZ
bspeck82- you are correct. petty yes. small and minuscule in the grand scheme of the whole build yes. but again its about trying to get the max. trying to do different things to get the lil extra.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2017
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Id be careful. Do it wrong and it will have the opposite effects of what you intended.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 533
Likes: 1
From: South East AZ
Hey man; nobody here cares if you want or respect their opinion. Here's a tip: you don't own the website or the thread, even if you started said thread. You are more than welcome to ignore the parts of the convo you aren't interested in. You'll have a miserable existence here if you let yourself get upset when the conversation doesn't go exactly where you want it to.
Some of these "*****" you refer to are very knowledgeable and talented. Later when you might actually need some legit help you'll be the guy they are joking about a few messages above.
Some of these "*****" you refer to are very knowledgeable and talented. Later when you might actually need some legit help you'll be the guy they are joking about a few messages above.
Taman86, its always good to research new techniques that can gain hp. Long time ago back in 2000 or so, the X topic came up with some of my NASCAR friends who are engine builders. Most of them have moved on to other motorsports and one works for McLaren doing F1, Indy car & NASCAR support.
The feeling at that time as explained to me was better results for street cars are had with the correct piston being coated with a friction reducing coating and using the right low tension rings.
Now with EDM etching or laser etching & CNC control there might be a change in the technology that makes the old trick worth a second look. I don't know. I do think if th trick works the etch will have to be so perfect you will need CNC or EDM or laser etch to hold tolerances. That's my guess. However, I'm sure Wiseco or one of the other companies could help you with this sort of custom piston technology or explain better alternative approaches to the question.
Have you contacted the piston companies to discuss what your wanting to do?
The feeling at that time as explained to me was better results for street cars are had with the correct piston being coated with a friction reducing coating and using the right low tension rings.
Now with EDM etching or laser etching & CNC control there might be a change in the technology that makes the old trick worth a second look. I don't know. I do think if th trick works the etch will have to be so perfect you will need CNC or EDM or laser etch to hold tolerances. That's my guess. However, I'm sure Wiseco or one of the other companies could help you with this sort of custom piston technology or explain better alternative approaches to the question.
Have you contacted the piston companies to discuss what your wanting to do?
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 533
Likes: 1
From: South East AZ
Taman86, its always good to research new techniques that can gain hp. Long time ago back in 2000 or so, the X topic came up with some of my NASCAR friends who are engine builders. Most of them have moved on to other motorsports and one works for McLaren doing F1, Indy car & NASCAR support.
The feeling at that time as explained to me was better results for street cars are had with the correct piston being coated with a friction reducing coating and using the right low tension rings.
Now with EDM etching or laser etching & CNC control there might be a change in the technology that makes the old trick worth a second look. I don't know. I do think if th trick works the etch will have to be so perfect you will need CNC or EDM or laser etch to hold tolerances. That's my guess. However, I'm sure Wiseco or one of the other companies could help you with this sort of custom piston technology or explain better alternative approaches to the question.
Have you contacted the piston companies to discuss what your wanting to do?
The feeling at that time as explained to me was better results for street cars are had with the correct piston being coated with a friction reducing coating and using the right low tension rings.
Now with EDM etching or laser etching & CNC control there might be a change in the technology that makes the old trick worth a second look. I don't know. I do think if th trick works the etch will have to be so perfect you will need CNC or EDM or laser etch to hold tolerances. That's my guess. However, I'm sure Wiseco or one of the other companies could help you with this sort of custom piston technology or explain better alternative approaches to the question.
Have you contacted the piston companies to discuss what your wanting to do?
what was the thought about the 'x' in motorsports? I agree though that either cnc or laser etching would be best for QC as to not cause weak points or even burrs causing damage to the cylinders.
One of the 'free hp' tricks used in motorsports and some sports cars is Nikisil to line cylinder bores and maybe lifter bores. It's probably more of a race technology than a street car. I think Jaguar had some issues when they used it on their production cars in the 90's. It is interesting, one of the keys to success for the Porsche 917.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; Feb 19, 2017 at 08:19 PM.
Helped a buddy rebuild a Honda 75 or so youth dirt bike last year. It was probably a late 90s or early 2000 model. Nikasil liner factory.
Last edited by Mercier; Feb 19, 2017 at 10:02 PM.