LSA for daily
11-27-2017, 04:50 PM
#21
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Anyone ever see Eric the Viking? With Tim Robbins and John Cleese?
That scene where the boat is falling off the edge of the earth and there is this one guy who swears it is not happening because the earth is round - while the boat is falling off the earth?
Its all I can think of right now.
If the OP was not confused before, he is by now.
That scene where the boat is falling off the edge of the earth and there is this one guy who swears it is not happening because the earth is round - while the boat is falling off the earth?
Its all I can think of right now.
If the OP was not confused before, he is by now.
11-27-2017, 05:45 PM
#22
10 Second Club
having a number and unit is quite different than saying something is big or small.
"The Tiny dog is in the humongous purse of a very short lady".
Every persons mind will assign their own size to each object.
We can be "more precise" but too much precision can muddy things up, the 34.158329586435" by 56.00000000144" might be necessary if it was a space shuttle landing, but we could leave off many of those decimals in other practical applications.
For a public forum, the discussion rarely concentrates on ramp rate. Ramp rate from 0.00001" of lift to 0.501" of lift will be faster on solid-roller setups, and it will change the height of the valve at .050". There are also flat-tappet style camshafts which have even slower rates than hyd. roller. So many types of camshaft, ramp rate designs exist, some of the info is historical i.e. this is for learning objectives. Some profiles are so fast they trash valvetrain components within 24 hours, performance in the head at the expense of wear and tear, to win a race.
So yes, in the context of measuring a camshaft profile and determining the quality of lobe, I think it is important to be aware of the difference in seat-to-seat, ramp rate, and .0501" to .0500" that our camshafts can provide. I say our because there are engines out there with multiple camshafts, which allows for rotation of one set of valve events (say you only wanted to advance the intake valve events, but not the exhaust valve events). Some engines can even change overlap by advancing or retarding each camshaft independently from the computer. It allows for a perfectly flat torque curve, since now you can optimize valve events at every RPM instead of having one specific ground in split between them which peaks at only one specific point. By reviewing history, and other engine's technology differences from ours, learning how they are doing things, and seeing new ways of thinking about how a valvetrain is controlled, what we go through to get extra lift (trying to get more flow) the next engine manufacturer can get the same or better by just moving one camshaft relative to another from the computer. Because the naturally aspirated engine is capped around 100%VE, even if it can get 105 or 108% with a tunnel-ram, it isn't much past "100" we simply can't do better than that, and if I can get 100% using an incredibly low lift just by timing my valve events correctly for that exact RPM I can avoid all the unnecessary wear and tear.
Next, and perhaps more importantly, there are calculations for fuel injector spray timing in most ECU. Even my 20 year old Gen3 ECU has a couple, "small" (couple of 1-row ) injector when-to-spray and end-spraying tables. Knowing exactly when, not sort of when but exactly when the exhaust valve is absolutely shut beyond all reasonable doubt is not essential because we can always fudge factor a couple degrees after that spot. So precision isn't super important. Even so, we should know or be aware of the full advertised duration of the camshaft to get this number without going overboard.
In conclusion, the overlap feature that is ground into Chevy V8 camshaft has ties to various aspects of performance and tuning. It can be used to model the behavior of a variety of aspects of an engine's performance, even the behavior of fuel.
"The Tiny dog is in the humongous purse of a very short lady".
Every persons mind will assign their own size to each object.
We can be "more precise" but too much precision can muddy things up, the 34.158329586435" by 56.00000000144" might be necessary if it was a space shuttle landing, but we could leave off many of those decimals in other practical applications.
For a public forum, the discussion rarely concentrates on ramp rate. Ramp rate from 0.00001" of lift to 0.501" of lift will be faster on solid-roller setups, and it will change the height of the valve at .050". There are also flat-tappet style camshafts which have even slower rates than hyd. roller. So many types of camshaft, ramp rate designs exist, some of the info is historical i.e. this is for learning objectives. Some profiles are so fast they trash valvetrain components within 24 hours, performance in the head at the expense of wear and tear, to win a race.
So yes, in the context of measuring a camshaft profile and determining the quality of lobe, I think it is important to be aware of the difference in seat-to-seat, ramp rate, and .0501" to .0500" that our camshafts can provide. I say our because there are engines out there with multiple camshafts, which allows for rotation of one set of valve events (say you only wanted to advance the intake valve events, but not the exhaust valve events). Some engines can even change overlap by advancing or retarding each camshaft independently from the computer. It allows for a perfectly flat torque curve, since now you can optimize valve events at every RPM instead of having one specific ground in split between them which peaks at only one specific point. By reviewing history, and other engine's technology differences from ours, learning how they are doing things, and seeing new ways of thinking about how a valvetrain is controlled, what we go through to get extra lift (trying to get more flow) the next engine manufacturer can get the same or better by just moving one camshaft relative to another from the computer. Because the naturally aspirated engine is capped around 100%VE, even if it can get 105 or 108% with a tunnel-ram, it isn't much past "100" we simply can't do better than that, and if I can get 100% using an incredibly low lift just by timing my valve events correctly for that exact RPM I can avoid all the unnecessary wear and tear.
Next, and perhaps more importantly, there are calculations for fuel injector spray timing in most ECU. Even my 20 year old Gen3 ECU has a couple, "small" (couple of 1-row ) injector when-to-spray and end-spraying tables. Knowing exactly when, not sort of when but exactly when the exhaust valve is absolutely shut beyond all reasonable doubt is not essential because we can always fudge factor a couple degrees after that spot. So precision isn't super important. Even so, we should know or be aware of the full advertised duration of the camshaft to get this number without going overboard.
In conclusion, the overlap feature that is ground into Chevy V8 camshaft has ties to various aspects of performance and tuning. It can be used to model the behavior of a variety of aspects of an engine's performance, even the behavior of fuel.
11-27-2017, 05:48 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by big hammer
Gas go boom boom inside motor make car go vroom vroom
Last edited by Darth_V8r; 11-28-2017 at 02:55 PM.
11-27-2017, 06:00 PM
#24
I must say this forum is the most regressed I have seen. Even the young kids of zilvia and hondatech seem more interested in education and learning. Everyone here seems like they want to avoid reading and learning at all costs.
Lets talk about human behavior for a minute. If I can put my injector spray right where I want it and have the best looking plugs, the most efficient engine and best economy, and I am actually late to the party since people have been doing this stuff already for years before I even knew about it.
Then to find a forum on the infinite plane of internet space, where, not only does nobody even know overlap-based injector phasing maths exists, they actually reject learning what so many others have discovered so long ago. Its like finding a sub population of humans that still think the Earth is flat, and refuse to change from that belief.
I found the epic thread where this is discussed by those who came before us, and did all the hard work for us:
https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...light=ecu+warm
Calling it bullshit is like saying the first person to notice planets have simple harmonic motion was a witch and should be burnt. Call them witches if you want; their cars are faster because of it.
Lets talk about human behavior for a minute. If I can put my injector spray right where I want it and have the best looking plugs, the most efficient engine and best economy, and I am actually late to the party since people have been doing this stuff already for years before I even knew about it.
Then to find a forum on the infinite plane of internet space, where, not only does nobody even know overlap-based injector phasing maths exists, they actually reject learning what so many others have discovered so long ago. Its like finding a sub population of humans that still think the Earth is flat, and refuse to change from that belief.
I found the epic thread where this is discussed by those who came before us, and did all the hard work for us:
https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...light=ecu+warm
Calling it bullshit is like saying the first person to notice planets have simple harmonic motion was a witch and should be burnt. Call them witches if you want; their cars are faster because of it.
11-27-2017, 06:09 PM
#25
TECH Senior Member
People here are all for learning, but a good teacher knows that they need to find and use relevance in regards to the pupils level of understanding; skipping straight to the longest breathed and most complex form of the subject while teaching only alienates and further confuses said pupil.
I doubt he'll get it though. Too into himself.
11-27-2017, 06:09 PM
#26
Maybe stuff I post is for me to place on the internet for me to look up later if I feel like it. I don't care if you read what I write/have opinions etc... I am trying very much so to become unpopular, anti-camera, non-showboat, don't pretend like a million dollars is money, because it isn't.
Drive for the fun of driving. Not because other people are on the road.
This attitude means
I can post anything about anything
because I am not trying to make money from the knowledge, anything goes
Drive for the fun of driving. Not because other people are on the road.
This attitude means
I can post anything about anything
because I am not trying to make money from the knowledge, anything goes
11-27-2017, 06:12 PM
#27
TECH Senior Member
11-27-2017, 06:39 PM
#28
You misinterpret the result. Or deny it's existence.
It means any machine broken down, even molecular machines,
any phrase which might entice thought, any message which includes transcriptional and translatable messages,
and any idea which presents as a problem or challenge,
is free to be solved from whatever point of view is necessary to do so.
While still retaining it's entertainment value.
It means any machine broken down, even molecular machines,
any phrase which might entice thought, any message which includes transcriptional and translatable messages,
and any idea which presents as a problem or challenge,
is free to be solved from whatever point of view is necessary to do so.
While still retaining it's entertainment value.
11-27-2017, 06:44 PM
#29
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I had these four sided things under my car but I made it into one continuous side and it move much better now. Much easier for my wooly mammoth to pull it. I think I will call that one-sided shape thing either a lusqueltchian or a wheel. I will let you know which one I decide on later. Thanks for listening.
11-27-2017, 06:53 PM
#30
Any idiot can read a book and gain knowledge and then regurgitate it online.
Having wisdom to apply what you've learned and concisely explain it to others is an entirely different skill set that some just do not have.
Unfortunately, too many people think theyre in the latter category....but really are in the former.....
Having wisdom to apply what you've learned and concisely explain it to others is an entirely different skill set that some just do not have.
Unfortunately, too many people think theyre in the latter category....but really are in the former.....
11-27-2017, 10:32 PM
#34
TECH Senior Member
11-27-2017, 10:47 PM
#35
10 Second Club
11-27-2017, 11:01 PM
#36
TECH Senior Member
Not just you, man! Thing is, Lance is looking at the WHOLE PICTURE, the problem being, his picture has a lot more scenery than our measly snapshot! He has done SO MUCH, with so many NAMES in the automotive world, it's mind boggling. So yeah, he is VERY cool!
11-28-2017, 02:12 PM
#38
Cutting words out of sentences can make it seem less understandable, the goal was simply to reduce clutter and word litter, and this is commonly observed on the internet. You should expect "internet abbrev" sentences or you will have to work to understand the message when words are removed for saving time, when viewing informal internet materials. And then blame the Author for doing what was right in an informal setting. If you need clarification, ask for clarification. Or use a dictionary or thesaurus until it makes sense. Getting mad is not going to help.
Ex:
Ur cat got into fridge's cold-storage bin somehow again.
The word "Ur" is obviously "your" or it can be "you're". There are many "short words" for "saving time" in commonly used phrases, Obviously, so why are you surprised to see it used in such a "futuristic" way?
growls? I mean baah. baah.
Ex:
Ur cat got into fridge's cold-storage bin somehow again.
The word "Ur" is obviously "your" or it can be "you're". There are many "short words" for "saving time" in commonly used phrases, Obviously, so why are you surprised to see it used in such a "futuristic" way?
growls? I mean baah. baah.
11-28-2017, 02:50 PM
#39
TECH Senior Member
NOBODY said a thing about language use; it's your knowitall attitude and wayoffthedeepend way of stating things that gets EVERYONE around here.
So quit excusing yourself from nonexisting issues.
(See how I ran words together to save space? Pretty cool, huh?)
So quit excusing yourself from nonexisting issues.
(See how I ran words together to save space? Pretty cool, huh?)
11-28-2017, 06:58 PM
#40
approaching infinity is part of some calculus equations. It is standard practice to divide sections of graphs, such as velocity, accel, or position, in turn using kinetic equations for moving objects and taking differentials.
"off the deep end" is usually when I use infinity. Sometimes it is hard to model a particular section of a graph if you do not have the y=x formula. In those instances, it may become possible to at least see the result for when x = infinity, where does y finally wind up no matter what?
"off the deep end" is usually when I use infinity. Sometimes it is hard to model a particular section of a graph if you do not have the y=x formula. In those instances, it may become possible to at least see the result for when x = infinity, where does y finally wind up no matter what?