destroyerSS

iTrader: (2)

TONY, I would like to know the exact spec's of the heads you tested and i also think you should know this info before posting about gains your product give's!! Because as a member of this board i try to give or get all the info before making a purchase and if it is proven that your heads will out perform the heads i have i would be foolish no to consider your product. But by being vague it makes comparisions difficult. Thanks Shawn

cyphur

iTrader: (10)

shawn, i know you posted that to tony, but take this into consideration as well please.

have you ever seen a post about someone going from stg2 ported heads to AFR heads and losing power? i haven't, and i'm on this site quite a bit. also, he's already said he's not going to disclose exact specs b/c it should suffice that it was a QUALITY aftermarket ported stock casting(and he won't dime out the other company). tony is a man of his word afaict, he's gone to great lengths to make this head series the best in the business, and he's succeeded. i'm sure you could outflow a cnc'd 205 or 225 w/a 3-4k hand finished head, but then your HP/Dollar ratio goes out the ****** window.

just a few things to think about. like people have said, just cuz a head advertised as flowing 315 @ .600, doesn't mean it does. flowing 290 on an independant bench is pretty good.

MelloYellow

It's a bit too long of a post for me to read, but I think the overall 'problem' with the marketing of the AFR 205 Heads were the initial estimate/dynos of 460rwhp.

I own a set of AFR 205's and love them, but noone I know has come close to the 460rwhp #'s and everything just realizes they are not common power numbers even when using the AFR Cam you recommend.

I like my heads as they are for FI and the overall superior quality and good above average power. But if you want to understand why others out there are upset, I think it all hinges around expectations/marketing and the reality of the AFR 205's power numbers.

Hope that made sense.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Mello...

There are quite a few AFR 205 cars putting down 460 + RWHP. UNLESS you copy my combination to a "T", you cant expect to generate the numbers my car put down....THAT is the biggest problem that I see out there. People who think they can install our AFR 224 cam in dot to dot, slap a set of 205's on and go out and put down 470 + are not being realistic. You NEED the FAST 90 set-up....You NEED to degree the cam....You NEED to bump the CR....You NEED the underdrive and EWP....you NEED the right tune to put it all together etc., etc., etc. BUT, even without the luxury of all the other goodies, the basic AFR 205 H/C packages have been providing average to better than average results across the country (notice there is practically no one putting up really poor numbers), and the guys that are spending the coin for all the goodies, and spending the time to "dial their combinations" are putting down big numbers. Do I have to start naming the tuners across the country that have all seen big RWHP #'s from 205 installs?....Just use the search function if you haven't been following all the threads closely....there are plenty of them out there.

Mr. "Destroyer", I have already provided enough information regarding the heads we tested our 205's against....I mentioned that test and shared data pertaining to it not to be ultimately pinned down to which vendor it was, but to better show the facts and figures we have seen firsthand and I'm confident the test we did is a valid one and one that I feel the results would be similar and "representative" of MANY "Stg" 2 ported castings available in the aftermarket. As I have said time and time again, 300+ CFM LS heads are not a dime a dozen(on our flow equipment) unlike the "internet" would lead you to believe, and the ones we tested that do go over 300 CFM aren't even close to 205 cc's. I've flowtested quite a few 230 + cc runners and one or two 240 + cc runners that did NOT reach 300 CFM by .600 valvelift.

Guys....please keep in mind the design objectives of the AFR 205....which up till now is EVERYTHING you are basing your opinions off of. Read back some 12-18 months ago, long before ever going to our first dyno test, when I posted that AFR's goal with the 205's and our 224 street cam was to make 440-450 RWHP with all the bolt on's....back then a number not seen with a "small" 224 camshaft. The AFR 205 is not a "miracle" head but a damn good piece that is arguably the best STREET head currently on the market. Lets see what we can accomplish with the 225 RACE heads....a product more "aimed" and better focused at putting down the "big" numbers. We have high hopes that they will set the "bar" up another notch or two....the 225 is more of the head that THIS crowd has been waiting for and I will put it up against any "Stg 3" or "Stg 4" or "Stg 5" right out of the box from AFR....keep the sandrolls in your toolbox.

No matter what there will be folks that just don't believe, don't want to believe, or just simply want to stay "loyal" to their cylinder head manufacturer of choice....that's just the way it is and I accept that. To those of you truely reading these threads with an open mind and the thirst for more knowledge, you are the reason I spend the time I do and will (hopefully) continue to do so.

Thanks,
Tony Mamo

DanZ28

iTrader: (5)

Tony, can you tell me will your heads work better with certain cam's? Meaning, if I just swapped to your heads from my existing S2 heads and used my existing Trex cam would I see the same or better HP/TQ? Or would a different cam show better results for the AFR heads. I ask this because a friend in the club I'm in had some ill effects swapping to the AFR 205's from his S2 heads using the MTI Stealth II cam, I mean it's fairly significant. I'm hoping there was another problem but nothing so far...

Thanks for your time!
Dan

PREDATOR-Z

DanZ28,
You being a mmber since 2001, I'm sure you do a lot of reading around. From this I could deduct that you know that not all cams will have uptimum performance with a said X brand head.
Either you choose your cam and have a custom set of head designed to optimise its performance or vice versa.
Since it is cheaper to custom make a cam for a specific head that is usualy the way to go.
The AFR 224/228 is different than comp 224/228 in valve events/ICL etc... so it is a custom grind on a comp stick designed for the AFR 205 parameters.
I hope this clarifies the subject a little.

Bottom line guys and this has been discussed over and over again.
I bet that if you give your car to Tony Mamo and ask him to duplicate the set up that went 480>500 rwhp on it, he certainly can. Why? because he knows ALL the parameters of that combo and has countless hours into that project. Can another person do it, yes once he has put all the efforts into achieving the knowledge that Tony has after all his research and D&D.
This is not magic, it is a develloped combo that works.

Bill's 02 Z-28 SS

Hi Tony,
I guess I am one of those guys that could not wait for your heads to come out and brought the GMPP Ported LS6 heads - which appear to be good if I believe the flow numbers. It appears that your head's are GREAT and can produce excellent performance right out of the box. I wish I had waited. Good job. Also, very smart to let the rest of the world know also.
Bill

destroyerSS

iTrader: (2)

MR TONY, I would like to clear up a few things. First i was not the one asking for the flow #'s because as you stated internet numbers can gain quickly I am also not asking you to throw the name of the company out into the mix! {although it would make for a nice comparsion} As of now i have Absolute Speed stage 2.5 5.3L heads with 2.055 & 1.57 valves. So this is why i am trying to obtain the exact info {regareding head specs} from you!! Were they ls6 or ls6 style,what valves,what springs,were they milled? What compresion? I am not trying to down grade your heads or to fuel any fight i am just trying to gain thae most infomation as possible in order to compare apple's to apple's. Like i also stated If i your AFR 205 OR 225's will improve my power i would be foolish not to consider you product. Thanks Shawn

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Shawn...

All the test parameters were the same, the compression was EXACTLY the same...it was a fair test that the public wasn't "privied" to. The test was for our own "internal" information...we would have only been kidding ourselves had we not kept the test on a "level playing field".

Your a "225 guy" anyway, so sit back and wait till the small chamber (62 cc) 225's come out. Then you can start "evaluating" the performance results.

As far as the camshaft concerns, I think Predator Z summed it up pretty well, but to reiterate there will certainly be power losses from using a camshaft that doesn't compliment the cylinder heads as well as perhaps another grind that has been "proven" on the dyno. I believe the cam you were speaking of is a "reverse" pattern which definately showed us the poorest results during our 205 camshaft development work. If you guys are thinking about a cam that is even reasonably close to one of our "package" cams (we only have two currently, the third to be released with our 225 results), do yourself a favor and eliminate the possibility of installing one that might not work as good as something we have spent time on the dyno developing. If your on a budget, and can't drop more money on a camshaft after purchasing our cylinder heads, we understand, but don't be looking for our "advertised" power figures, or even close, unless you hit EVERY detail of the build-up.

One more thing guys ....VERY important....I've heard thru the grapevine that some of you have rushed out to buy the large chamber 225's and plan on milling them down to be the first kids on the block with a pair of them bolted on a stock cubic inch shortblock. Trust me when I tell you that you are "compromising" your results because you will have to mill an excessive amount of material off the head deck to get you into the high 50's (a "preferable" chamber volume to achieve an honest 11 to 1 after you compensate for the 2-3 cc valve reliefs you will need). This will accomplish two things....you will certainly hurt the flow numbers and power output (could be as much as 10-15 CFM) and there is a good chance your manifold won't line up properly or perhaps even bolt up because you haven't addessed the intake flange.

If your building an N/A 11 plus to 1 stock cubic inch shortblock, we strongly advise you to wait till we complete our 62 cc version of the 225's. Everything will bolt up perfectly and a small .020 mill will put you in the high 50 cc range which would be desirable for any "flat top with valve relief" 346 build-up.


Thanks,
Tony M.

destroyerSS

iTrader: (2)

Tony, Thanks for the info and i'll be watching for those heads and hopefully some good results. Thanks Shawn

JF WS6

Tony,

Sorry if this is old news, but how far away are the small chamber 225's from being on sponsors shelves? Just curious about a time estimate. Thanks!

Byter

iTrader: (1)

This is why I bought AFR heads. There isn't a vendor who is more open about their product than Tony. I'm as cynical as anyone on this forum about dyno numbers (from vendors AND members) and I know the 205 numbers were reached under perfect conditions. However, Tony has always answered everyone's questions and answered all of mine via email. I like that as a customer and as someone who has their own business.

I know I'll never get the dyno numbers Tony got because my engine has always had lower dyno numbers, plus I did the install myself. But given these facts, I believe that the AFR setup (head/cam) will give me the most bang for my buck for a very long time. Judging from the way the car is running right now (no dyno tuning yet), I couldn't be happier with my choice. Using my SOTP dyno, the car is a beast!

jrp

iTrader: (16)

tony, i might put together an AFR guide so you dont have to keep rehashing the same ****

DanZ28

iTrader: (5)

jrp, how gracious of you, that would be nice actually.

Predator, yes I know about how important combinations are. But I have reasons to ask concerning the numbers I saw. Thanks for chiming in though.

Tony, thanks for clearing that up. I see alot of people saying they purchsed AFR heads and they will be using XX cam off the shelf and wanted to clarify with you this may not be the best route to take.

Thanks again!

Dan

HotRod68Camaro

iTrader: (29)

Is there a benefit to getting the AFRs ported again by some one such as Futral Motorsports or TEA? I just listed those vendors b/c iv heard that they have already done some.

Thanks

Kyle

eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

Tony what kind of timing do the AFR heads like? 5.3 castings work best with 28-30 as well as the regular LS1 castings and LS6 Castings like only 24 and show no gains above 24.

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

Whats the difference per cc between flat and angle milling AFR heads?
Phil

SPANKY LS1

iTrader: (24)

From AFRs website:

Angle Mill .008” per cc
Flat Mill .006” per cc

Shawn

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

I thought that angle milling left more meat on the heads....
Phil

DrkPhx

iTrader: (15)

I'm seriously thinking of the AFR 225 72cc heads for a 402 stroker. Would the 72cc heads be okay to mill if I need slightly more compression?