Valve Springs
what are the limits? weak comeback. none of them have come in to say why not use higher ratio rockers. vinci and crane have come in explaining why higher ratios work and are a benefit. and as others in this very post have said, they don't want to rip apart their motors to put a cam in that will alter their idle and driveability characteristics. they want a relatively simple mod that will increase performance without sacrificing the daily driving they have now. so, from now on when someone asks will rockers help out, says yes they can instead of going it 's waste of time and throw a cam in.
but, i do like that you have acknowledged the fact that
a little backpeddling i see.
but, i do like that you have acknowledged the fact that
Originally Posted by bigdsz
After market rockers do in fact have a niche for our engines
The very limited niche is if you are running Comp R's or solids so they can be adjusted, and I'm not necessarily including 1.8's when I say aftermarkets. Listen Robert I'm not only picking on Cranes over priced rockers. There is a lot of LSX stuff that I have issues with and wouldn't buy on a bet like for instance the FAST 90/90, the split valve chain cover, Exedy clutch, some shocks and suspension parts. The reason I get on your case is because of the constant drum beat and IMHO mis information. You are truly doing a disservice to some guys that may not have a real good grasp of the LSX conceptually.
misinform? so your saying the dynos and track results that not only me, but others on this very forum are lies???? you are the one doing a severe disservice everytime you tell them it's a waste of money and yet have never once tried them. just because someone says no, doesn't mean it's not right. i have yet to see anything showing that higher ratio rockers don't work. and i'm talking about any brand out there. they all work. some work better.
i'm glad it's only your opinion. now start showing data to disprove anything i've brought to the table. use your own car to show that higher ratio rockers don't work. i've used my own car to show they do. and so have others out there. you sure do attack all the people that do use crane products. even in this thread. i tell you what, i'll start posting links to theads where people have used all brands of higher ratio rockers and have had positive results. you start providing links where they didn't.
and i agree with you on the whole fast 90/90 deal. i'm going for over 400 rwhp with a ls1 intake just to show they aren't as limited as people make them out to be. and i'm seriously contemplating trying for 400 rwhp with the stock 99 ls1 cam in the wife's car.
you and i will always disagree over higher ratio rockers. especially vinci/crane. seems to be sore spot for you. for now, i have the upper hand in proving they work. one day we'll have to meet up and shake hands. really, i don't take things personally. it's all in good debating. after all look at politcs. they scream at each other daily. then go out and get drunk with each other the same night.
i'm glad it's only your opinion. now start showing data to disprove anything i've brought to the table. use your own car to show that higher ratio rockers don't work. i've used my own car to show they do. and so have others out there. you sure do attack all the people that do use crane products. even in this thread. i tell you what, i'll start posting links to theads where people have used all brands of higher ratio rockers and have had positive results. you start providing links where they didn't.
and i agree with you on the whole fast 90/90 deal. i'm going for over 400 rwhp with a ls1 intake just to show they aren't as limited as people make them out to be. and i'm seriously contemplating trying for 400 rwhp with the stock 99 ls1 cam in the wife's car.
you and i will always disagree over higher ratio rockers. especially vinci/crane. seems to be sore spot for you. for now, i have the upper hand in proving they work. one day we'll have to meet up and shake hands. really, i don't take things personally. it's all in good debating. after all look at politcs. they scream at each other daily. then go out and get drunk with each other the same night.
This will be my last comment on the subject. Why spend $700 for rockers when you could order a little larger cam at no additional cost, That would serve the same purpose probably better.
here, i'll quote myself.
and i''ll add a couple reasons. fuel economy. needle bearings won't fall out.
Originally Posted by mrr23
and as others in this very post have said, they don't want to rip apart their motors to put a cam in that will alter their idle and driveability characteristics. they want a relatively simple mod that will increase performance without sacrificing the daily driving they have now
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,620
Likes: 17
From: BFE
here you go. comp cams 220/224 .581/.581 115 LSA with 1.7 accelerated lift rockers vs vinci 055 216/224 .551/.551 (1.7) 113 LSA with 1.8 accelerated lift rockers (brings total lift to .589/.589) smaller cam larger ratio did better. the comp even had the accelerated lift rocker advantage as well. i'm still waiting to see it the other way around and win
The proper way to do that is get a cam, slap higher ratio rockers >dyno
then grind a cam with the same lifts, VE's than the once obtained wih higher rockers and dyno again, this time back to back on same motor within same time frame, then compare.
I'm sure you'll not see the same difference in gains.
instead of surmising it being the same, do it. vinci/crane stated in the beginning the accelerated lift rockers would produce more low end torque over a cam that was 6-10* larger. people were skeptics. they did the test. and now you have the results. both dyno and track.
nothing wrong with going the larger cam route. it's cheaper that's for sure. and that's the main reason why people do it. but, for those wanting to extract the most they can out of what they have, you go for it all. some just can't afford to go the better way. and that's understood.
to call people morons for going the rocker route is just plain wrong.
nothing wrong with going the larger cam route. it's cheaper that's for sure. and that's the main reason why people do it. but, for those wanting to extract the most they can out of what they have, you go for it all. some just can't afford to go the better way. and that's understood.
to call people morons for going the rocker route is just plain wrong.
Originally Posted by Unaffiliated Racing
You can get a rocker kit from Comp for $494.70 and pushrods for another $107.58
That's a little over $60 cheaper.
That's a little over $60 cheaper.
Originally Posted by Unaffiliated Racing
That is just what Comp sells them for. You could possibly get a better deal from other sponsors and companies. Who am I kidding....you already know this.
Later,
Brian
Later,
Brian
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Cu...ML/200-203.asp
The 1.75 kit. Comes with rockers, guideplates, locks, and studs. $582.00 right off their site.
http://www.powerandperformancenews.c...Category_Code=
The 1.85 kit. Again $582.00
http://www.powerandperformancenews.c...Category_Code=
The 5/16 hi-tech pushrods they recommend. $165.28 off their site as well.
http://www.powerandperformancenews.c...Category_Code=
total price $747.28
now, i did go looking at a couple of sponsors and their pricing
highest $592.90
lowest because of a sale $555.90
kinda like comparing a camaro to a corvette though.
same sponsors sell the crane 1.8 kits for $699.00 vinci sells it normally for $669.00
joe vinci just put up another sale yesterday. even a rocker and spring kit.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...74#post3147774
but they won't match any vendors pricing though.
brian, do you have any dynos, or other data on your rockers? something to add to this post as far how well they work? also, what do the 1.85 rockers come off the seat at? what are the weights of the rockers and pushrods?
brian, do you have any dynos, or other data on your rockers? something to add to this post as far how well they work? also, what do the 1.85 rockers come off the seat at? what are the weights of the rockers and pushrods?
yes it was. and then, the poster gets called a moron for wanting to go with 1.8 rockers.
going off topic happens alot. usually because another question comes to mind. that's life.
they are??
well, when you get into work on tuesday, please share the info. i'm sure i'm not the only one that wants to know this info. i'm sure it's public info as well. just can't find it.
and just to show you that i'm not brand specific, here's a pic of the last motor i built for my 86 TA. rockers look familiar? the motor alternated between crane and comp. cam(crane), lifter(comp), pushrod(crane), rocker(comp), springs(crane).
going off topic happens alot. usually because another question comes to mind. that's life.
Originally Posted by Unafflicated Racing
Anyway my posts are inteded for a flame war.
well, when you get into work on tuesday, please share the info. i'm sure i'm not the only one that wants to know this info. i'm sure it's public info as well. just can't find it.
and just to show you that i'm not brand specific, here's a pic of the last motor i built for my 86 TA. rockers look familiar? the motor alternated between crane and comp. cam(crane), lifter(comp), pushrod(crane), rocker(comp), springs(crane).
Last edited by mrr23; Jul 2, 2005 at 10:15 PM.
On an earlier post here I made a statement about the beehive springs and harmonics. I've gone back and reread some info and as was stated in response to my post, the beehive spring is designed to better control harmonics. According to Vinci, because of the beehive design, the springs make a noise somewhere around 4800 RPM's that the knock sensors are detecting as a knock and in an attempt to control the percieved knock, the CPU causes performance to go flat. I've read similar info on other posts/sites. I believe I was having such a problem with my car because often times my car would fall flat at around 5000 RPM's. I got rid of the beehive springs and I do not have that problem anymore. It isn't my opinion, it's my real-world results. The beehive springs I replaced were OEM. I haven't tried any aftermarket beehive springs so I don't know how they perform.
The original post was whether the LS6 spring would be ok with the 1.8 rockers. My opinion was that they probably would not. I'm not an expert. I did however, consult with Vinci before I installed my rockers. Based on their experience they don't recommend beehive springs in the LS1. I used a product they helped develop with their expertise and I accepted and followed their advice.
Quite a bit of what is posted here is in response to questions wherein a person responds that a particular setup is what they have and their setup is similar to the one in question therefore it should definitely work for the person asking a question. That's opinion. Most of what I read on this entire site is opinion. When you tell me I wasted my money because I installed the VHP rocker kit, that's opinion. It's your opinion. I've installed them on my car and I'm happy with them so far. It's my opinion that my car runs better than it did prior to the install. I like the advertised benefits of the product, and I wanted my daily driver to breathe a little better without installing a cam and without taking the chance of creating driveability problems. I could have purchased other rocker arms from other manufacturers for quite a bit less money and I was fully aware of that, but that isn't what I wanted to do. I wanted to try this product because I read their technical data and I thought it made sense. You wouldn't do it that way and I appreciate that.
Now then, some people provide graphs and charts to show their results and it gives me a chance to see those results, and it helps me make some decisions about what I'm going to do with my car. Some people talk about theory and the theory behind particular designs and applications. But we are communicating with each other about cars. They are mechanical and electrical and are propelled by the explosion of bits of fuel vapor mixed with air. Results vary under seemingly identical circumstances and sometimes theory is not reality. Theoretically, bees can't fly, but we all know that they do because we have seen them fly.
I like seeing fact-based technical releases from the manufacturers and vendors. It helps me. I particularly appreciate hearing from people who have actually used a product in their car and can show me what has happened with their personal car and/or give me their opinion. That helps me even more.
The original post was whether the LS6 spring would be ok with the 1.8 rockers. My opinion was that they probably would not. I'm not an expert. I did however, consult with Vinci before I installed my rockers. Based on their experience they don't recommend beehive springs in the LS1. I used a product they helped develop with their expertise and I accepted and followed their advice.
Quite a bit of what is posted here is in response to questions wherein a person responds that a particular setup is what they have and their setup is similar to the one in question therefore it should definitely work for the person asking a question. That's opinion. Most of what I read on this entire site is opinion. When you tell me I wasted my money because I installed the VHP rocker kit, that's opinion. It's your opinion. I've installed them on my car and I'm happy with them so far. It's my opinion that my car runs better than it did prior to the install. I like the advertised benefits of the product, and I wanted my daily driver to breathe a little better without installing a cam and without taking the chance of creating driveability problems. I could have purchased other rocker arms from other manufacturers for quite a bit less money and I was fully aware of that, but that isn't what I wanted to do. I wanted to try this product because I read their technical data and I thought it made sense. You wouldn't do it that way and I appreciate that.
Now then, some people provide graphs and charts to show their results and it gives me a chance to see those results, and it helps me make some decisions about what I'm going to do with my car. Some people talk about theory and the theory behind particular designs and applications. But we are communicating with each other about cars. They are mechanical and electrical and are propelled by the explosion of bits of fuel vapor mixed with air. Results vary under seemingly identical circumstances and sometimes theory is not reality. Theoretically, bees can't fly, but we all know that they do because we have seen them fly.
I like seeing fact-based technical releases from the manufacturers and vendors. It helps me. I particularly appreciate hearing from people who have actually used a product in their car and can show me what has happened with their personal car and/or give me their opinion. That helps me even more.
