Patroit performance local flow bench numbers
08-17-2005, 12:43 AM
#21
Im not too familiar with flow numbers. Are you saying that these heads arent a worthwhile purchase? Or, is it just one of those cases where, you get what you pay for? Would there theoretically be much of a H.P. difference, between these heads, and some of the others in the $2K range? Thanks in advance!
08-17-2005, 12:58 AM
#22
Originally Posted by Nittany_marine
Im not too familiar with flow numbers. Are you saying that these heads arent a worthwhile purchase? Or, is it just one of those cases where, you get what you pay for? Would there theoretically be much of a H.P. difference, between these heads, and some of the others in the $2K range? Thanks in advance!
I am not saying these heads arent a worthwile purchase, I am only stating that these are the 2nd worst heads I have seen come off the bench I use.
They are however the CHEEPEST heads as well.
In fact the next in price is about 200 dollars more.
If your not compairing price vs price there are some better products out there. AFR would wipe the floor with these heads but with these heads I could buy a cam, all gaskets for the head and cam swap, pushrods, and still have some money left over in compairson to the AFR heads by themselves.
I am sure the TEA stage 1.5 5.3 would put a old fashion *** whopping on these as well but again there is a $$$ difference. Not much but still a difference. If your looking for a nice upgrade with a budget then the PP might work for you. Let me compair a stock LS6 head vs these and show you were some impressive gains are made.
Stock LS6 cores, 600 bucks. When you take 600 and add in the 200+ dollars for valves, 200+ dollars for springs, 100 bucks for retainers, you get 1100 bucks already. Now everything has to be installed and if a machine shop did that lets say 150 bucks. (2 hours labor)
Total you have 1250 invested.
With the PP you get all that for a similar price plus you get better flow numbers, great C/S, free head bolts, and a better setup for compression with the welded chambers.
I by all means am not the biggest PP fan but I can see the logic in buying a set.
Hope this answers your question's.
08-17-2005, 02:23 AM
#24
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Originally Posted by JZ'sTA
I am not saying these heads arent a worthwile purchase, I am only stating that these are the 2nd worst heads I have seen come off the bench I use.
They are however the CHEEPEST heads as well.
In fact the next in price is about 200 dollars more.
If your not compairing price vs price there are some better products out there. AFR would wipe the floor with these heads but with these heads I could buy a cam, all gaskets for the head and cam swap, pushrods, and still have some money left over in compairson to the AFR heads by themselves.
I am sure the TEA stage 1.5 5.3 would put a old fashion *** whopping on these as well but again there is a $$$ difference. Not much but still a difference. If your looking for a nice upgrade with a budget then the PP might work for you. Let me compair a stock LS6 head vs these and show you were some impressive gains are made.
Stock LS6 cores, 600 bucks. When you take 600 and add in the 200+ dollars for valves, 200+ dollars for springs, 100 bucks for retainers, you get 1100 bucks already. Now everything has to be installed and if a machine shop did that lets say 150 bucks. (2 hours labor)
Total you have 1250 invested.
With the PP you get all that for a similar price plus you get better flow numbers, great C/S, free head bolts, and a better setup for compression with the welded chambers.
I by all means am not the biggest PP fan but I can see the logic in buying a set.
Hope this answers your question's.
They are however the CHEEPEST heads as well.
In fact the next in price is about 200 dollars more.
If your not compairing price vs price there are some better products out there. AFR would wipe the floor with these heads but with these heads I could buy a cam, all gaskets for the head and cam swap, pushrods, and still have some money left over in compairson to the AFR heads by themselves.
I am sure the TEA stage 1.5 5.3 would put a old fashion *** whopping on these as well but again there is a $$$ difference. Not much but still a difference. If your looking for a nice upgrade with a budget then the PP might work for you. Let me compair a stock LS6 head vs these and show you were some impressive gains are made.
Stock LS6 cores, 600 bucks. When you take 600 and add in the 200+ dollars for valves, 200+ dollars for springs, 100 bucks for retainers, you get 1100 bucks already. Now everything has to be installed and if a machine shop did that lets say 150 bucks. (2 hours labor)
Total you have 1250 invested.
With the PP you get all that for a similar price plus you get better flow numbers, great C/S, free head bolts, and a better setup for compression with the welded chambers.
I by all means am not the biggest PP fan but I can see the logic in buying a set.
Hope this answers your question's.
08-17-2005, 08:33 AM
#25
Originally Posted by JZ'sTA
If everything is welded then I would assume a larger cam could be used with a 59cc head then most other 59cc heads.
We have always had a simple policy... If any customer during pre installation testing or inspection is not 100% satisfied with our heads, we will replace the heads or refund the full purchase price of the heads.
Jeremy, we appreciate the evaluation and encourage others to do the same with all companies. If you or Gary have any questions, just give us a call.
08-17-2005, 01:48 PM
#26
Thanks Gunner, I was hoping you would chime in and answer some of the tech questions I had.
I hope you dont think I was bashing your company in any way as I did my best to give a honest oponion. You guys have came a long way over the past year or so. I remember all the PP haters which are now almost completly gone.
I am also by no means saying I am not happy with the heads and as I showed above in compairson to the LS6 heads believe they are a nice set for the price. Again thanks gunner for the reply.
I hope you dont think I was bashing your company in any way as I did my best to give a honest oponion. You guys have came a long way over the past year or so. I remember all the PP haters which are now almost completly gone.
I am also by no means saying I am not happy with the heads and as I showed above in compairson to the LS6 heads believe they are a nice set for the price. Again thanks gunner for the reply.
08-17-2005, 02:37 PM
#29
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Patriot Performance Thanks Gunnar. Also great to deal with and very professional. I can't tell you two guys how much your professionalism means to me. I have to wait to install these heads with Jeremy until next month due to personal issues, but I am ready!
08-17-2005, 04:33 PM
#30
Originally Posted by Wassko268
Thanks Gunnar. Also great to deal with and very professional. I can't tell you two guys how much your professionalism means to me. I have to wait to install these heads with Jeremy until next month due to personal issues, but I am ready!
No problem guys.
08-17-2005, 08:51 PM
#31
Originally Posted by JZ'sTA
Intake Exhaust
100--- 57.12--- 53.23
200--- 127.54-- 89.11
300--- 189.77-- 123.10
400--- 235.84-- 150.62
500--- 268.32-- 173.11
600--- 280.25-- 190.61
700--- 291.17-- 198.51
100----74.38 ----56.2
200----137.69----101.40
300----186.03----138.80
400----237.11----170.48
500----265.35----191.55
600----281.75----205.15
700----275.82----206.90
100--- 57.12--- 53.23
200--- 127.54-- 89.11
300--- 189.77-- 123.10
400--- 235.84-- 150.62
500--- 268.32-- 173.11
600--- 280.25-- 190.61
700--- 291.17-- 198.51
100----74.38 ----56.2
200----137.69----101.40
300----186.03----138.80
400----237.11----170.48
500----265.35----191.55
600----281.75----205.15
700----275.82----206.90
I bolded the "better" of the two flow numbers at any lift for intake and exhaust just to make it easier to compare. So Patriots are "better" than the worst you ever flowed because they keep flowing up to and past 700?? How many members on this board drive around a car with .700" max lift on a regular basis?? I don't see many!
So the "worst" heads outflow the Patriots on the exhaust at any given lift. We can agree that exhaust flow is important to making power too.... right? And the Patriots outflow the "worst" head here and there....there being .700"+.
So how are the Patriots the second worst head you've tested out of curiosity?? Seems to me that they, in the average users' eyes, are the worst. Are they the second worst only because their peak flow number on the intake was higher? Does that make them better? Because on dyno graphs, I recall it being the average power (area under the curve) that makes the fast cars move...not just their peak HP. Is this much different? Just trying to make sure I understand this cylinder head flow subject! Feel free to point out anything I've missed!
08-17-2005, 09:03 PM
#32
Originally Posted by Not A V8
Ok, I'm no cylinder head expert; I'll admit that up front! BUT.... it seems that the 2nd worse heads you ever flowed (Patriots) only out-flowed THE worst head ever by a little at certain points, and only on the intake side.
I bolded the "better" of the two flow numbers at any lift for intake and exhaust just to make it easier to compare. So Patriots are "better" than the worst you ever flowed because they keep flowing up to and past 700?? How many members on this board drive around a car with .700" max lift on a regular basis?? I don't see many!
So the "worst" heads outflow the Patriots on the exhaust at any given lift. We can agree that exhaust flow is important to making power too.... right? And the Patriots outflow the "worst" head here and there....there being .700"+.
So how are the Patriots the second worst head you've tested out of curiosity?? Seems to me that they, in the average users' eyes, are the worst. Are they the second worst only because their peak flow number on the intake was higher? Does that make them better? Because on dyno graphs, I recall it being the average power (area under the curve) that makes the fast cars move...not just their peak HP. Is this much different? Just trying to make sure I understand this cylinder head flow subject! Feel free to point out anything I've missed!
I bolded the "better" of the two flow numbers at any lift for intake and exhaust just to make it easier to compare. So Patriots are "better" than the worst you ever flowed because they keep flowing up to and past 700?? How many members on this board drive around a car with .700" max lift on a regular basis?? I don't see many!
So the "worst" heads outflow the Patriots on the exhaust at any given lift. We can agree that exhaust flow is important to making power too.... right? And the Patriots outflow the "worst" head here and there....there being .700"+.
So how are the Patriots the second worst head you've tested out of curiosity?? Seems to me that they, in the average users' eyes, are the worst. Are they the second worst only because their peak flow number on the intake was higher? Does that make them better? Because on dyno graphs, I recall it being the average power (area under the curve) that makes the fast cars move...not just their peak HP. Is this much different? Just trying to make sure I understand this cylinder head flow subject! Feel free to point out anything I've missed!
08-17-2005, 11:14 PM
#34
Originally Posted by Not A V8
Ok, I'm no cylinder head expert; I'll admit that up front! BUT.... it seems that the 2nd worse heads you ever flowed (Patriots) only out-flowed THE worst head ever by a little at certain points, and only on the intake side.
I bolded the "better" of the two flow numbers at any lift for intake and exhaust just to make it easier to compare. So Patriots are "better" than the worst you ever flowed because they keep flowing up to and past 700?? How many members on this board drive around a car with .700" max lift on a regular basis?? I don't see many!
So the "worst" heads outflow the Patriots on the exhaust at any given lift. We can agree that exhaust flow is important to making power too.... right? And the Patriots outflow the "worst" head here and there....there being .700"+.
So how are the Patriots the second worst head you've tested out of curiosity?? Seems to me that they, in the average users' eyes, are the worst. Are they the second worst only because their peak flow number on the intake was higher? Does that make them better? Because on dyno graphs, I recall it being the average power (area under the curve) that makes the fast cars move...not just their peak HP. Is this much different? Just trying to make sure I understand this cylinder head flow subject! Feel free to point out anything I've missed!
I bolded the "better" of the two flow numbers at any lift for intake and exhaust just to make it easier to compare. So Patriots are "better" than the worst you ever flowed because they keep flowing up to and past 700?? How many members on this board drive around a car with .700" max lift on a regular basis?? I don't see many!
So the "worst" heads outflow the Patriots on the exhaust at any given lift. We can agree that exhaust flow is important to making power too.... right? And the Patriots outflow the "worst" head here and there....there being .700"+.
So how are the Patriots the second worst head you've tested out of curiosity?? Seems to me that they, in the average users' eyes, are the worst. Are they the second worst only because their peak flow number on the intake was higher? Does that make them better? Because on dyno graphs, I recall it being the average power (area under the curve) that makes the fast cars move...not just their peak HP. Is this much different? Just trying to make sure I understand this cylinder head flow subject! Feel free to point out anything I've missed!
Nice that you noticed.
The number dont lie.
I ran a avarage from 200-700 on all my compairisons and the PP avarage 232.15 if you take all the numbers from 200-700 and divide them by 6.
The other heads that were CnC ported locally avarage 230.61 through the same flow range.
As far as exhaust goes. The PP heads were the worse.
I should have added that in but figured my post was long enough as is.
08-17-2005, 11:18 PM
#35
Originally Posted by jrp
your missing a few key components; port volumes, valve sizing, and minimal cross section, ect
I agree. What I need to do is start measureing how big the heads are. That will also help show how good the heads are.
Valve sizing as we all know is damn important.
08-18-2005, 07:16 AM
#37
Originally Posted by Mike98WS6
All I know is I like my Patriots.
08-18-2005, 08:43 AM
#38
Originally Posted by Z'mnypit
Me to, Ive got my flow #s & pics posted in this section a couple threads down & the flow #'s for my head dont dissapoint me a bit, even with the 62cc comustion chamber. The #'s were however higher then the ones posted in this thread.
08-18-2005, 11:00 AM
#39
Guys I like the info but please dont get me wrong. I AM NOT STATING THESE HEADS ARE GOOD OR BAD FOR MAKING POWER, just showing what the flow and how other heads I have flowed have done in comparision. I have used quite a few sets of heads over the past 2-3 years and have had great success with some and not so great with others.
Flow numbers by all means are important but there are many other as important components of the heads for making power. Also the 3rd worst set I listed on page one was a LPE head. It made 487 RWHP with a T rex cam in a 370 cubin inch motor.
That was on 93 octane with good compression but also in 94 degree weather with 90+% humity through a 12 bolt, and barely broken in.
Could another head make more power? Sure. But did the heads used make very good power. Yes. Again flow numbers aren't everything, if they were everyone would hog the heads out to 250+cc's and flow 330 all day long.
Flow numbers by all means are important but there are many other as important components of the heads for making power. Also the 3rd worst set I listed on page one was a LPE head. It made 487 RWHP with a T rex cam in a 370 cubin inch motor.
That was on 93 octane with good compression but also in 94 degree weather with 90+% humity through a 12 bolt, and barely broken in.
Could another head make more power? Sure. But did the heads used make very good power. Yes. Again flow numbers aren't everything, if they were everyone would hog the heads out to 250+cc's and flow 330 all day long.
Last edited by JZ'sTA; 08-30-2005 at 09:50 AM.
