Need some help with New APE shortblock!
09-08-2005, 09:55 PM
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Need some help with New APE shortblock! Ok, everyone knows the APEShit, but.... I rec'd my 347 shortblock shortly after I got home from Afghanistan (and I didnt know any of the **** was coming down so....). I found out about everything and thought I was good since I got mine. But, missing the oil pump, oh well. I looked over the block, it is an LS6 as sold, does have the correct pistons, and coated, and correct rods, and bolts, morel lifters and EDC Cam with correct Cloyes Hexadjust timing set with new lifter cups (which I wasnt charged for) think that about it.
Fast Forward and I just read about Na$ty's two APE engines (Kyle FI Section) and how the rod bearings looked. So, I am sitting staring at the shortblock on the engine stand. I want to take the rod caps off and check the clearance, but at the same time I dont, may not make since until you have dealt with all this ****. So, other than physically pulling the caps off, checking the clearance with plasti-gage or dials and mics, is there any other possible way to make sure my **** wont be jacked up?
It sounds naive I know, but I would like to believe that since everything is in it as ordered and paid, sans the oil pump, that maybe mine will be good and I worrying about this too much! Dont shoot me, I am just trying to turn over a new leaf in my life....
If I take the caps off, what is the recommended clearance for the rod bearings and Main bearings? This was setup for 200-300 shots of nitrous if it matters.
Charlie
Fast Forward and I just read about Na$ty's two APE engines (Kyle FI Section) and how the rod bearings looked. So, I am sitting staring at the shortblock on the engine stand. I want to take the rod caps off and check the clearance, but at the same time I dont, may not make since until you have dealt with all this ****. So, other than physically pulling the caps off, checking the clearance with plasti-gage or dials and mics, is there any other possible way to make sure my **** wont be jacked up?
It sounds naive I know, but I would like to believe that since everything is in it as ordered and paid, sans the oil pump, that maybe mine will be good and I worrying about this too much! Dont shoot me, I am just trying to turn over a new leaf in my life....
If I take the caps off, what is the recommended clearance for the rod bearings and Main bearings? This was setup for 200-300 shots of nitrous if it matters.
Charlie
09-08-2005, 10:30 PM
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I keep going out, uncovering my shortblock and looking at every minute detail, counting threads on the main studs, cross-referencing part numbers stamped on the parts etc.
What is the acceptable spacing b/w rods on a journal? Can someone at least tell me that much please?
Kyle, was your block all deburred? I asked for that and it is done as well.
I know the 100% no worries answer is to take it apart and verify everything, but damn man..... I want to cry now.
Charlie
What is the acceptable spacing b/w rods on a journal? Can someone at least tell me that much please?
Kyle, was your block all deburred? I asked for that and it is done as well.
I know the 100% no worries answer is to take it apart and verify everything, but damn man..... I want to cry now.
Charlie
09-08-2005, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Beast96Z
My main clearence was .0024" and the rod bearing clearence was .0022". These are normal readings you would look for. FWIW, the APE engine I recieved was perfect. I guess some just got bad ones there in the end.
09-09-2005, 12:24 AM
#6
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Do not dwell over it too much IMO.
Either slap it in, or take it to a reputable shop and do a blueprinting all over.
If they paid attention to deburring etc... the job was prolly done right.
One thing though, with the Morrel lifters, I would remove those and clean them thoroughly to remove any left over factory coatings on them as there has been many reports of plungers sticking if that wasn't properly done.
You can remove the clip and take them appart if you feel like it.
Either slap it in, or take it to a reputable shop and do a blueprinting all over.
If they paid attention to deburring etc... the job was prolly done right.
One thing though, with the Morrel lifters, I would remove those and clean them thoroughly to remove any left over factory coatings on them as there has been many reports of plungers sticking if that wasn't properly done.
You can remove the clip and take them appart if you feel like it.
09-09-2005, 12:29 AM
#7
Originally Posted by CAT3
Whats the clearance b/w rods on the same journal if you have that? Everything looks so perfect from the outside looking in!
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09-09-2005, 01:01 AM
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Pred.. I seen that post on the Morels, and luckily they are only sitting in the shortblock, not under a pair of heads. I will contact Allan Futral and inquire whether he can recall cleaning mine as he said he does on the morels he sells. Mine were bought last year, so may not have been a noted problem then.
Beast.. I am sure there isnt a set clearance as well, just too tired to be worrying about this. Damn it.
Beast.. I am sure there isnt a set clearance as well, just too tired to be worrying about this. Damn it.
09-09-2005, 02:43 AM
#9
Big end side clearance has alot to do with overall oil pressure, as that's the main exit path for the oil after feeding all bearing journals. The rods have room to slide side to side on the wrist pins and the crank journals, as they should. But Kyles motor had visually excessive big end side clearance. Normally i see somewhere between .014 and .024 when i put together my motors, the motor in the white car, and my truck motor. I didn't bother with the feeler gauges when i peaked at the bottom of Kyles, as I could SEE the clearance was large. Having done alot of surface mount electronics assembly by hand, I've got a good handle on visually gauging spacing close to .025" and .050". These were realy close to .050 if not more, you could get away with it on a superior oiling system (ie dry or wet sump) but not a stock pump IMO.
It's one of the easier clearances to measure, as you don't have to remove anything other than the pan.
It's one of the easier clearances to measure, as you don't have to remove anything other than the pan.
09-09-2005, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by y2khawk
Big end side clearance has alot to do with overall oil pressure, as that's the main exit path for the oil after feeding all bearing journals. The rods have room to slide side to side on the wrist pins and the crank journals, as they should. But Kyles motor had visually excessive big end side clearance. Normally i see somewhere between .014 and .024 when i put together my motors, the motor in the white car, and my truck motor. I didn't bother with the feeler gauges when i peaked at the bottom of Kyles, as I could SEE the clearance was large. Having done alot of surface mount electronics assembly by hand, I've got a good handle on visually gauging spacing close to .025" and .050". These were realy close to .050 if not more, you could get away with it on a superior oiling system (ie dry or wet sump) but not a stock pump IMO.
It's one of the easier clearances to measure, as you don't have to remove anything other than the pan.
It's one of the easier clearances to measure, as you don't have to remove anything other than the pan.
Charlie
09-09-2005, 12:00 PM
#11
you should be able to push the rod pairs apart slightly, sliding the big end of the rod along the crank bearing journal.
It's a easy as pushing the rod pairs apart, and using a feeler gauge to fine the space between them. Normally, they don't move much, ie clearance in the mid teens to low twenty thousands.
It's a easy as pushing the rod pairs apart, and using a feeler gauge to fine the space between them. Normally, they don't move much, ie clearance in the mid teens to low twenty thousands.
09-09-2005, 12:17 PM
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Yeah, I gotcha, thats what I was asking about up top due to my frustration didnt get the naming correct. So the lateral distance b/w the rods big ends should be well less that .050", preferably around .020 +/- .0xx"?
If there is more room b/w the big ends what is the remedy, replace the crank, rods, both or what?
I have a feeling mine are running around .030". **** shitshitshit.
If there is more room b/w the big ends what is the remedy, replace the crank, rods, both or what?
I have a feeling mine are running around .030". **** shitshitshit.
09-09-2005, 01:09 PM
#13
it all depends. I believe stock clearance is mid 20's
I wouldn't worry too much if it's approaching 30.
It's really a function of the rod more than anything. Each manufacturer has there own spec, given the nominal SBC rod journal size. The Manley rods I put in my truck were on the tight side, .014. The Crowers in the car for awhile ago were .018. The GRP aluminum were in the 20's.
It's the really big end of the scale i'd be worried about IMO. If it's under 30 or close to it, call it good. There's not much you can do to tighten it up anyway, short of replacing the rods.
Like I said, kyle's was on the LARGE size of the scale. a stack up of large side clearance there and the added oiling groove lenght of the FM mains combined with a stock volume pump can do bad things. But that's only speculation on my part. I don't make it a habit of doing motors for anyone but myself. Since I can only blame one person then
Thus the reason Kyle's motor went to the real experts, should be sitting on the stand next to my new one. Sometimes it's easier to let someone else worry about things.
I wouldn't worry too much if it's approaching 30.
It's really a function of the rod more than anything. Each manufacturer has there own spec, given the nominal SBC rod journal size. The Manley rods I put in my truck were on the tight side, .014. The Crowers in the car for awhile ago were .018. The GRP aluminum were in the 20's.
It's the really big end of the scale i'd be worried about IMO. If it's under 30 or close to it, call it good. There's not much you can do to tighten it up anyway, short of replacing the rods.
Like I said, kyle's was on the LARGE size of the scale. a stack up of large side clearance there and the added oiling groove lenght of the FM mains combined with a stock volume pump can do bad things. But that's only speculation on my part. I don't make it a habit of doing motors for anyone but myself. Since I can only blame one person then
Thus the reason Kyle's motor went to the real experts, should be sitting on the stand next to my new one. Sometimes it's easier to let someone else worry about things. 
09-09-2005, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by v8maro
Yeah, send it to best machine here in MI, Chuck knows his shiznit, he's doing your short block too isnt he harlan?
If I were back home in Michigan, sure no problem, but from Hawaii.....I'd rather do it myself, hell after shipping there and back I could buy a new rotating assembly practically.
Thanks Harlan. Will measure tonight or tomorrow...dont want to ruin my friday night.
09-09-2005, 09:08 PM
#16
Originally Posted by v8maro
Yeah, send it to best machine here in MI, Chuck knows his shiznit, he's doing your short block too isnt he harlan?
Yep thats right big dog...... its over at Best Machine......
At least this time i know it will be right.
Charlie,
I feel for ya bro.... i hope your not in the same boat as me.....we dont even know a 100% of what all happened yet and if all the parts can be reused or what......
If ya need anything let me know man.
Kyle
09-09-2005, 09:23 PM
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Kyle, all I need whenever you and I meet is a hug and have a coke, talk story man. This **** sucks! You need to hook your brother up, not sure what you could to surprise the hell out of him, but dayum, what a cool "sponsor." Good luck to you too.
09-10-2005, 12:02 PM
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Charlie,
As a ref point for you, I just got done checking my 402 short block I just got from SDPC, and my rod bearing side-to-side spacing was < .025" on all 4 sets, and my main bearing clearance was .002 +/- a hair on all the main caps. I haven't checked the rod bearing clearance yet. And my motor was setup for boost.
Mark
Like Harlan said, I'd think you'll need a BIG-*** (flow, not pressure) oil pump for your gaps.
As a ref point for you, I just got done checking my 402 short block I just got from SDPC, and my rod bearing side-to-side spacing was < .025" on all 4 sets, and my main bearing clearance was .002 +/- a hair on all the main caps. I haven't checked the rod bearing clearance yet. And my motor was setup for boost.
Mark
Like Harlan said, I'd think you'll need a BIG-*** (flow, not pressure) oil pump for your gaps.
09-10-2005, 11:34 PM
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So happy now, clearances on pairs from front to rear:
1-2 .021"
3-4 .021"
5-6 .018"
7-8 .020"
Glad that parts is good. I think from here I am going to cross my happy sack, install (hopefully in the next month) and run it. I dont feel like taking the caps off and measuring the rest of the bearings.
Thanks everyone for the help.
Charlie
1-2 .021"
3-4 .021"
5-6 .018"
7-8 .020"
Glad that parts is good. I think from here I am going to cross my happy sack, install (hopefully in the next month) and run it. I dont feel like taking the caps off and measuring the rest of the bearings.
Thanks everyone for the help.
Charlie
