I am currently selling my 2000 TA to buy a 98. I plan on doing a motor swap. I'm still in college, so the budget is not including a 422!

Since I use my car 95% of the time as a daily driver, driveability and dependability are the most important...not rwhp.

I plan on having a N/A car maybe in the 350rwhp range and then when I want to race I plan on using a 200+ dual stage N2O shot. Therefore I think Forged internals are a must.

Tell me what you think of my planned setup and any corrections you would make.
6.0L Iron shortblock
Forged JE or Ross pistons with a 9.1 or 9.5 CR
Stock Crank (big debate right now, but I won't be taking the car over 6500rpm (auto)
What type of rods would you guys suggest?

Cam I was thinking a TR224 112LSA. Is this a good choice for a N2O cam? what lift do you reccommend and what are your thoughts on split duration for N2O?

As far as a stall, I was thinking a PI 3200 or SY3500? I want this car to perform better from a roll, not a stop (I don't go to the track much)

I plan on having a FLP level IV tranny...will this hold up to 550rwhp?

Any help is appreciated. I know ARE builds a 385 with forged everything for $7500. I'm trying to stay away from a stroker motor and just use the solid Iron 366 (6.0L) that's about half way between the 346 and the 385!

Thanks guys <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
matt

<small>[ May 07, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Tx Phi Psi ]</small>

 

any opinions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

 

This setup will make WAY more than 350RWHP... But if you want to go this route, I'd go with Oliver rods. I can give you a run down on approximate cost for this setup and it's not exactly cheap... If you'd like more details on real world costs for this type of buildup, let me know.

Shane

 

Shane:

Any info you have would be great. I am planning on just using the stock 6.0L truck heads *upgrading the springs and rods for the cam*

This should save $2500 by itself.

I was thinking I could find a used truck block for $500, then the pistons are about $800 a set of 8 (guessing).

Cam package is $7xx from TR

Rods and gaskets I have no clue on the price.

TB ported by Shaner $300 (no core)

Dynatech headers 1 7/8 stepped around $800

The 6.0 is a direct drop in isn't it? Or do I need to buy a new computer, wiring harness, etc?

thanks
matt

 

matt, why dont you just go with forged rods/pistons w/ your stock crank in your stock bore aluminum block? and why the low compression?
Are you building it as a max nitrous setup or a NA motor that will be sprayed?

<small>[ May 08, 2002, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Onyx LS1 ]</small>

 

After reading alot of people's setups, I decided that the stronger iron block (although 70lbs heavier) would give me a better sense of security.

I plan on spraying no less than a 200 shot, so I think compression has to be low to be safe. I am only a 1yr owner of an LS1, so I am not as smart as everyone...therefore if I am wrong, please tell me so I don't make a dumb mistake.

I plan on using forged internals, and since iron is much stronger than aluminum, plus the added bennefit of more cubic inches, I figured it would be smarter to go with a 6.0L

Here is my plan:
Build an engine that can handle 600rwhp when needed(not often) and still maintain good gas mileage and dependability.

One day I'll save up enough to buy Rob Raymers Turbo kit, but for now I thought I'd go with the less expensive N2O (mom is a dentist...so I get all the N2O medical grade for a BIG discount!)

Justin, tell me what you think I should do.
Oh yeah, I am almost positive I want an automatic cause I hate Austin traffic and West Campus stop signs. Who has used a Speed Inc(sponsor) race prepped 4l60 tranny. It's the least expensive tranny I've seen. Can it handle 600rwhp when needed?

thanks
matt

 

I'd pass on the iron block unless you plan on making more than 700+ rwhp. For basically a stock, forged engine, you will be making around 340-350 rwhp with bolt-ons and even with a 200 shot that will put you at around 550 rwhp. The aluminum block will handle that power no problem.

But, since you asked, the iron block will bolt right in and you will not need any new PCM for it. Just have the current one tuned once the package is done.

The ST3500 is a nice converter for the street. Vig 3200 would be my second choice for your application.

billet rods are about $700 a set. Gaskets are about $120. You should consider going with ARP head studs for that much nitrous, add a couple hundred for those.

Forged pistons are about $800 a set.

Tony

 

Matt,

The block is actually 100 lbs heavier than stock so keep this in mind. I had to go with the tubular K member and A-Arms plus I deleted a few "convienence items" to make up for the additional weight.

The block is a direct bolt-in exfept for the following:

You must drill and tap the ear on the lower right front of the block for the alternator bracket.

There are no threaded holes for ground strap studs on the block so you must make do with motor mount bolts or the like.

I agreee with Nineball that for what you are trying to do, upgrading the stock short block would be the route to go. A 200 shot on a well built stock block is no problem. Just change rods and pistons maybe stud the mains and add billet caps for a little insurance (that would be about the cost of an iron block.) and save the 100 lbs.

Now if you want to (safely) build a big inch motor, buy a 4-4.25 inch stroker crank, add an .030" over iron block and have a bullitproof 409-434 cubic inch engine. The only reason to go with the iron block is (1) for extra cubic inches or (2) for building a huge nitrous or FI setup.

I know there are going to be those out there who say re-sleeving a block is the way to go, but for the utmost in dependability, I don' think anyone will dispute the iron block is a proven commodity.

Thanks,
Shane

 

Matt,

I'd recommend you taking the aluminum block and have it honed, add new forged pistons, and a good set of rods. Lunati and Oliver both have a decent set. If you have the extra money the forged crank is nice but not a necessity. I'd recommend going with one of the Thunder cams with a more agressive intake lobe like the new 230/224 Jason has in his motor. If you'd like to e-mail me about some details I'll be happy to answer.

Are you planning on using the stock 6.0L heads or are you going to have them ported? I think with just heads and cam you could realistically see 440rwhp with an a4 car and a proper tune. Especially if you have enough compression to go with it. Jason made 410rwhp with just a cam and bolt ons with an m6. you should be able to make around 400 or so with the a4 and pick at least 40rwhp with a good set of GTP heads.

You could spray 100 shot or less on the motor and still have your 550 rwhp. I'd recommend not spraying it at all if you want it to last even longer. With the proper converter and weight reduction you could get the car deep into the 10's no problem.

Spray is good but its addictive and you can send an engine to an early grave if you get to greedy. Be sure to forward that last statement to me in an e-mail because I think along the same lines you do. The more power the better but when it breaks we are on a limited budget. Thats why my car is just now coming back together after a year.

I recommend you give Geoff at Thunder a call. I just watched him put together an engine for a customer and he takes the time to go through everything several times and works with an uncomprimising precision that I doubt you will find at the rest of the shops close to you.

 

Thank you Derrick, Shane, Tony, and Justin.

I knew this would be the place to go to when I had a couple of questions.

If I buy another LS1, it will mostlikely have 100k miles on it. This is why I am going to do a complete motor swap and tranny upgrade. That way it will be a fresh drivetrain. I just don't know whether I want to go iron or aluminum.

The advantages I found to the iron were that it was much stronger, had more CI, and was way less expensive than an aluminum shortblock, not to mention that it would have the truck heads with the LS6-style D exhaust port.

I will not spend $2500 for ported heads because I can up the shot that much for WAAAY less!

When I get more money in the next year or 2, then I plan on going the FI route with Rob Raymers Turbo...plans in the 650-700rwhp range.

Therefore, I am thinking it's just more economical for me to build a motor that can handle this now rather than building an aluminum block now and 1yr down the road selling it and building an iron block.

I plan on using that new TR 230/224 cam, but no one has stated if it can handle a big shot of n2o

I will most likely have TR build my motor, unless someone else with experience can do it for less.

Again, I appreciate all of the comments and please keep them coming. I can see how buying forged rods, pistons, and bolts and putting them in my stock block would be cheaper, but I don't know how reliable a 100k mile aluminum block is.

Thanks guys and continue giving me free advice...its worth paying for!

BTW, I don't even think I will travel around with my bottle in the car. This will prevent me from "over-spraying". Well, thats the plan as of right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

matt

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Tx Phi Psi:
<strong>...This will prevent me from "over-spraying". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wait I thought that is what I did to my quarter panel when I was painting my roll bar. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />

Anyways you should look into freshening up your aluminum block and maybe buying a new stock crank from Valvegod for reliability issues, just seems like it would be less hassle and maybe cheaper. I don't think you would have any reliablitly problems with a high milage block as long as it is cleaned up and matched with a good set of pistons. But it makes sense to go with the iron block if you are gonna go with a big turbo eventually.
I just don't like the idea of adding weight to the front of a car. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
As for the reverse split TR cam, that is opposite of what you want in a nitrous cam. A conventional spilt duration cam would fit a nitrous set up better due to less need for a larger intake duration with a big nitrous shot.

 

I agree with Onyx on the cam. If you still plan to spray it you might want to reconsider the cam. I'd call and ask Geoff at Thunder what he thinks about a custom cam which is just as easy to get as a grind they have on the shelf. Also am I understanding that you are lowering the compression now and spraying it but you want to add a turbo later. I don't like the idea of that a lot. A turbo and nitrous car are set up quite a bit differently. I'd recommend running the nitrous on the stock pistons until they were gone before using the forged if I wanted to wait for a blower setup. I personally think heads/cam will get you a lot farther than you think. That is if you are really looking for reliability <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DerekHLS1Freak:
<strong> That is if you are really looking for reliability <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Derrick what I'm looking for is a C5R 442 engine!

On a serious note, the exhaust should have more duration than the lift? Cool, got that down.

As far as H/C package, I know I can get well over 400rwhp, but I want atleast 550rwhp. Plus, a N2O motor is more of a daily driver than a H/C car, right?

Finally, I thought that both turbo and nitrous motors are supposed to be built with low compression. I think that's what ARE 385 block description said.

Thanks again guys for the good info.

Gotta go study some finance for tomorrow.
matt

 

Another Question for you guys.

A) Can a used Lunati 382 stroker setup (pistons, one is bad, rods, and Crank...the $4000 setup on TR) be dependable...after all, the components are forged. And do sponsers sell just 1 piston, or do you have to buy a set of 8.

B) Anyone ever had a stroker kit installed by a sponsor? If so, how much did you guys pay?

That's it for now.

Considering a 382 setup by lunati...forged for Juice. Everyone says I should stick with aluminum, so I guess I will (If this is cheaper than building a Iron Block)

Matt

 

If you are determined to use the nitrous Matt I'd either forget about the blower all together and build a nitrous motor or do a mild heads/cam setup that is streetable and then run a small shot on top of it. I'm not trying to deter you away from a blower. I did have one though. I recommend you decide what you want to do long term or you will be chaning parts later that you didn't expect to.

With either one I would recommend the Extreme 3400 converter. Its mild on the street and its setup specifically for power adder cars.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Tx Phi Psi:
<strong>Another Question for you guys.

A) Can a used Lunati 382 stroker setup (pistons, one is bad, rods, and Crank...the $4000 setup on TR) be dependable...after all, the components are forged. And do sponsers sell just 1 piston, or do you have to buy a set of 8.

B) Anyone ever had a stroker kit installed by a sponsor? If so, how much did you guys pay?

That's it for now.

Considering a 382 setup by lunati...forged for Juice. Everyone says I should stick with aluminum, so I guess I will (If this is cheaper than building a Iron Block)

Matt</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tx Phi,

As far as your questions:

A) As long as you have the parts of a used stroker kit checked out by a competent machine shop, you should be ok. The Lunati setup is made up of extremely good parts so you shouldn't have much to worry about.

B)I've seen shortblock assembly prices from $500-$1000. I can tell you, somtimes you get what you pay for. I worked with Geoff on measuring bearing clearances and such on my engine. We spent hours checking and re-checking critical clearances. When you are spending the kind of money on a rotating assembly and machine work, you just can't afford to take chances.

I wouldn't rule out the iron block if you are going to go all out with either a huge N2O shot or with FI later... After various "weight reduction mods" on my car, it is actually lighter now than it was with the aluminum block... <img border="0" alt="[devil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" />

Hope this helps.
Shane

<small>[ May 10, 2002, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: XtraCajunSS ]</small>

 

With a nitrous cam you typically want the exhaust lobe to have more duration, and oftem more lift than a cam for running n/a. This is because you are getting your O2 into the cylinder thru the nitrous, which means the intake tract doesn't have to be super-efficient. I wouldn't run a nitrous grind unless you're spraying 200 or more. Maybe on a 175....

A used rotating assembly can be used, but that bad piston needs to be replaced with a new one of the same weight and design as the old ones. The entire assembly will need to be balanced as well.

Nitrous will work with "high-ish" compression as opposed to forced induction. High meaning 11.5:1 range. Might have to dump in a few gallons of race gas at the track on hot days, depends on your tune. Or you can get a really trick wet kit and have a 2 gallon fuel cell in the trunk full of race gas, for the wet kit to pull from.

My .02 is get an alum block engine, hone it, put some forged pistons and rods in it, a good cam, bolt ons, and spray. Set it up right, and 128+ mph trap speeds should keep you happy for a few months.

J.

 

Sounds like you're on a budget. Warning here: If you spray a 200 shot or bigger, be prepared to spend some big bucks on an upgraded tranny. There's no way a stock 4L60E will live long behind that much torque. Don't drop all your cash into the motor. You'll be stranded soon without an upgraded driveline. You also need to keep your converter a little tighter for the 200 shot. A Pro Yank 3600 Extreme would be an excellent choice...a Yank Super Thruster 3500 would be my second choice

 

Would building a lower compression motor not be a good idea for N2O? I know that I don't have enough money for a turbo-kit right now, so I guess I'll stick with a motor built for 600-650rwhp.

Here's what I'm stuck on.
Buy a 6.0L that will give me better heads, more CI, and MUCH more strength.

Or buy another aluminum block. I want to have a spare engine just incase I hurt my Nitrous motor.

Both will cost about the same, I just haven't heard too many people talk about the stock 6.0L crank...is it as strong as the 5.7L crank, or is it weaker? This would be very important.

NA rwhp will be easily over 400 if I get a good cam and all the bolt-ons.

As far as a Tranny goes, I am thinking about the FLP IV setup. Just curious if anyone has put 600-650 rwhp throgh this tranny?

Also, I'm leaning towards PI for a Stall Converter. Do they make one that will hold up, or should I go with the Yank 3600 extreme?

Thanks guys
matt

 

Shane I read one of your posts on the other site and after finding out that I can use the 382 Lunati stroker kit on the 6.0L to make it a 409 that's what I'm going to do.

I like the 409 cause it's middle of the road between the 382 and the 427.

I would greatly appreciate it if you e-mail me all the things you had to buy to get this motor where its at today, and if you don't mind the prices of the parts and installation, along with any extras I might need.

Thanks
matt
Matt_Brown@mail.utexas.edu