What does an LS1 have over a SBC?
What does an LS1 have over a SBC? I'm ONLY talking about horsepower and torque. The big bore and stroke motors. What does an LS1 have that a SBC doesn't? It doesn't look like an LS1 stroker NA has made more power than what has been achieved by a SBC already.
Now, don't anybody chime in with "well the LS1 hasn't been around for 35 years", and "the fuel economy is so much better on the LS1", and "the driveability of the ls1, bla, bla". Start a new topic for that one. I just want to hear about the specific things that people think gives the LS1 more potential.
BTW, i am actually pretty neutral on the topic even though it doesn't sound that way. I just want to hear some technical explanations.
Now, don't anybody chime in with "well the LS1 hasn't been around for 35 years", and "the fuel economy is so much better on the LS1", and "the driveability of the ls1, bla, bla". Start a new topic for that one. I just want to hear about the specific things that people think gives the LS1 more potential.
BTW, i am actually pretty neutral on the topic even though it doesn't sound that way. I just want to hear some technical explanations.
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? Our LS1 heads flow more in stock form than most race-ported aftermarket SBC heads. That is the main advantage of the LS1.
Other than that:
-Cooler operating temps due to aluminum block
-Lighter weight
-Better sealing gaskets and seals (no leaks!)
-Stronger 6-bolt mains
Tony
Other than that:
-Cooler operating temps due to aluminum block
-Lighter weight
-Better sealing gaskets and seals (no leaks!)
-Stronger 6-bolt mains
Tony
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>Our LS1 heads flow more in stock form than most race-ported aftermarket SBC heads. That is the main advantage of the LS1.
Other than that:
-Cooler operating temps due to aluminum block
-Lighter weight
-Better sealing gaskets and seals (no leaks!)
-Stronger 6-bolt mains
Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">About the heads, I'm talking about a fully built motor. Do stage 3 LS6 heads flow better than anything you can get for a SBC? I don't have a clue
Cooler operating temps? Ummm...no. Everything I have ever seen goes against that.
They are definately lighter...+
Is the 6 bolt main aluminum block stronger than a 4 bolt iron block?
<strong>Our LS1 heads flow more in stock form than most race-ported aftermarket SBC heads. That is the main advantage of the LS1.
Other than that:
-Cooler operating temps due to aluminum block
-Lighter weight
-Better sealing gaskets and seals (no leaks!)
-Stronger 6-bolt mains
Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">About the heads, I'm talking about a fully built motor. Do stage 3 LS6 heads flow better than anything you can get for a SBC? I don't have a clue
Cooler operating temps? Ummm...no. Everything I have ever seen goes against that.
They are definately lighter...+
Is the 6 bolt main aluminum block stronger than a 4 bolt iron block?
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? Aluminum dissipates heat much quicker than cast iron. If the SBC and LS1 have the exact same cooling system, the LS1 will operate cooler.
The main thing about some high-powered SBCs is that they are solid roller setups, with straight runner tunnel-ram style intakes. There are some racing heads available for SBC that are mega-compression ratio and have very aggressive valve position angles, but these are far from being street motors. Nobody has really built up a mega-cr, all out racing LS1 yet.
Are you comparing all-out potential, or comparible setups between the two motors?
Tony
The main thing about some high-powered SBCs is that they are solid roller setups, with straight runner tunnel-ram style intakes. There are some racing heads available for SBC that are mega-compression ratio and have very aggressive valve position angles, but these are far from being street motors. Nobody has really built up a mega-cr, all out racing LS1 yet.
Are you comparing all-out potential, or comparible setups between the two motors?
Tony
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? When it comes to picking an all-out race engine, when compared to the LS1, I think there are equivilant/better engines out there.
From my standpoint, an LS1 is too expensive to modify for track requirements, there are much cheaper setups out there.
Additionally, there are engines (the SBC for example) that have been proven over the years. Most of the bugs have been worked out. I don't feel that all the bugs have been worked out of the LS1 yet, and any hoby racer is not going to want to R&D why something broke under race stresses.
For a kick-*** street/strip machine though, I don't think you can beat the LS1
From my standpoint, an LS1 is too expensive to modify for track requirements, there are much cheaper setups out there.
Additionally, there are engines (the SBC for example) that have been proven over the years. Most of the bugs have been worked out. I don't feel that all the bugs have been worked out of the LS1 yet, and any hoby racer is not going to want to R&D why something broke under race stresses.
For a kick-*** street/strip machine though, I don't think you can beat the LS1
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by NoGo:
<strong>From my standpoint, an LS1 is too expensive to modify for track requirements, there are much cheaper setups out there.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Totally agree. To build a 800rwhp LS1, one could easily sink $30K into the motor alone. For a SBC, $8K.
<strong>From my standpoint, an LS1 is too expensive to modify for track requirements, there are much cheaper setups out there.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Totally agree. To build a 800rwhp LS1, one could easily sink $30K into the motor alone. For a SBC, $8K.
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FormerVendor
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Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? With the C5R heads the LSX can probably make nearly the power of most any SBC but the older SBC has many canted valve heads that can go a little further. As far as the inline valve stuff the C5R is probably as good as almost anything out there.
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Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? Its almost stupid to build an all out racing LS1 because of the cost. The SBC's power output for the price is a fraction of the LS1, when talking pure racing engines etc. Its just not fair. I actually added up how much I've spent on after market parts for my car since I bought it, not including new wheels I was at almost $8000. That includes everything from suspension to engine and exhaust. That sux, but I love my car =)
What we need is more companies making after market parts for the LS1 like they do for the SBCs and BBCs. I wonder how many years will the LS1 have to be around until you can buy a racing cam for $99 like you can for a small block?
What we need is more companies making after market parts for the LS1 like they do for the SBCs and BBCs. I wonder how many years will the LS1 have to be around until you can buy a racing cam for $99 like you can for a small block?
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Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>Our LS1 heads flow more in stock form than most race-ported aftermarket SBC heads. That is the main advantage of the LS1.
Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i disagree with this statement....show me some flow sheets
if i remember correctly (prove me wrong please if i am) you race prepped LS6 heads had a intake port size of close to 235cc and flowed in the 330-340cfm range
with a sbc chevy head with that big of an intake port and a 2.08/2.10 valve, it will flow just as much.
The main difference with the LSX heads are the design of the intake ports and valve angles, i believe they have better velocity than standard SBC heads
<strong>Our LS1 heads flow more in stock form than most race-ported aftermarket SBC heads. That is the main advantage of the LS1.
Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i disagree with this statement....show me some flow sheets
if i remember correctly (prove me wrong please if i am) you race prepped LS6 heads had a intake port size of close to 235cc and flowed in the 330-340cfm range
with a sbc chevy head with that big of an intake port and a 2.08/2.10 valve, it will flow just as much.
The main difference with the LSX heads are the design of the intake ports and valve angles, i believe they have better velocity than standard SBC heads
On The Tree
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 191
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From: Dallas, TX
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wonder how many years will the LS1 have to be around until you can buy a racing cam for $99 like you can for a small block?[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I dont think the LSx will be around much longer. Probably why we dont see massive aftermarket efforts that typically drive down aftermarket pricing.
Just imagine how freaky it will get when GM puts out the next generation Corvette engines in the next few years. Dual inblock cams, and possibly camless engines using this kind of technology:
http://www.vetteguru.com/misc/elec_valve.jpg
<small>[ August 07, 2002, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: kewlbrz ]</small>
Just imagine how freaky it will get when GM puts out the next generation Corvette engines in the next few years. Dual inblock cams, and possibly camless engines using this kind of technology:
http://www.vetteguru.com/misc/elec_valve.jpg
<small>[ August 07, 2002, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: kewlbrz ]</small>
On The Tree
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From: Vette
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? I think you can easily match LS1 output with a similar setup SBC.
Bottom end differences cannot account for much HP difference, if any.
When it comes to heads - SBC was out for so long there’re all kinds of heads out there.
As an example: LPE built a 427 SBC C4 for Car & Driver. It used SB2 heads, but it made over 600bHP through full exhaust while passing emissions. Car ran ~128MPH in ¼ mile on street tires (full weight of course)
I think the real advantage of LS1 over SBC is to be able to get that power while keeping better streetability, better emissions and better gas mileage (that’s the area where most of the R&D went to IMO). Aluminum block sure is nice too for weight savings that mean a lot in handling/braking department (not a very popular item here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> )
You can get aluminum SBC bowtie block too however for ~$4.5K….
For a race car I don’t see any reason to go with LS1….
Bottom end differences cannot account for much HP difference, if any.
When it comes to heads - SBC was out for so long there’re all kinds of heads out there.
As an example: LPE built a 427 SBC C4 for Car & Driver. It used SB2 heads, but it made over 600bHP through full exhaust while passing emissions. Car ran ~128MPH in ¼ mile on street tires (full weight of course)
I think the real advantage of LS1 over SBC is to be able to get that power while keeping better streetability, better emissions and better gas mileage (that’s the area where most of the R&D went to IMO). Aluminum block sure is nice too for weight savings that mean a lot in handling/braking department (not a very popular item here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> )
You can get aluminum SBC bowtie block too however for ~$4.5K….
For a race car I don’t see any reason to go with LS1….
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> uh, i beleive you can get a sbc 434 stroker to make 800 hp easily where those ls1 434 stroke guys are barely breaking 600. Kinda funny </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since I haven't seen any 434 ci LS1 running solid roller and 13:1+ cr I must assume you're comparing apples and oranges here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
I've personally never seen an 800hp N/A SBC that's even remotely streetable.
I've personally never seen an 800hp N/A SBC that's even remotely streetable.
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? I have never seen a 800hp SBC unless it was like in a Winston cup car...
All things being equal the LS1/LS6 heads are phenomenal.
All things being equal the LS1/LS6 heads are phenomenal.
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? The thing about ls1/ls6 are that there are only so many setups a person can run. SBCs are every where and the parts are cheap. when a person pays $1675.00 for basic 2.02I heads for a Ls1, the same person can go a a swap meet and pick up the same or better heads for a lot cheaper. The demand for better Ls1 heads is not that high, so no one is making them. I believe that Ls1s are making very good power for what we have. I think that when someone finally make a head better than the C5R, it will be a bad a$$ head. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
On The Tree
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Dallas, TX
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think that when someone finally make a head better than the C5R, it will be a bad a$$ head. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Besides the smaller combustion chamber and different angle on the C5R heads, what makes them so much better? Arnt they otherwise an LS1 type casting?
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From: NJ
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? he didn't say anything about streetability <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
i'll have to get my *** in gear to finish my car and see if i can get it on the street. <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
i'll have to get my *** in gear to finish my car and see if i can get it on the street. <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
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From: NJ
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? he didn't say anything about streetability <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
i'll have to get my *** in gear to finish my car and see if i can get it on the street. <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
i'll have to get my *** in gear to finish my car and see if i can get it on the street. <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
Re: What does an LS1 have over a SBC? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BADZ:
<strong>Has anyone tried the SBC in an late model camaro? Has this been done and if so, how did it work out and is it possible?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm almost positive it's been done. In some of the lt1 cars. Might check camaroz28.com or the f-body.org mailing list.
<strong>Has anyone tried the SBC in an late model camaro? Has this been done and if so, how did it work out and is it possible?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm almost positive it's been done. In some of the lt1 cars. Might check camaroz28.com or the f-body.org mailing list.
