Need H/C help.
11-25-2002, 03:26 AM
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Need H/C help. Could someone help me pick some heads and a cam for my car? I really don't know much about them, and I have no clue what the numbers mean.
The mods that I have done so far are...Hooker LT's, SLP Lid,offroad Y pipe, SLP Loudmouth exhaust and a B&M Ripper Shifter. I don't really care about the cam being emissions legal because I've already got to find a way around that "They don't check here".
Basically I want the most power I can get, but I want it to be reliable. This car has to last, but if I had to change the springs every so often I guess I could live with that. "Is it hard?" I don't care how it idles as long as it idles. I do plan on adding about a 100 HP shot of nitrous later on, but my main concern is how if proforms on motor only.
Could someone make some suggestions for me as to which kit or heads and cam to go with? Could you list the prices of these items and what the HP gains should be? I have about $2000 to work with right now, so I'm just trying to figure out how much this is going to cost and what kind of gains I'm going to get.
Will I need a new T/B and "or" MAF sensor? What are the other hidden cost?
The mods that I have done so far are...Hooker LT's, SLP Lid,offroad Y pipe, SLP Loudmouth exhaust and a B&M Ripper Shifter. I don't really care about the cam being emissions legal because I've already got to find a way around that "They don't check here".
Basically I want the most power I can get, but I want it to be reliable. This car has to last, but if I had to change the springs every so often I guess I could live with that. "Is it hard?" I don't care how it idles as long as it idles. I do plan on adding about a 100 HP shot of nitrous later on, but my main concern is how if proforms on motor only.
Could someone make some suggestions for me as to which kit or heads and cam to go with? Could you list the prices of these items and what the HP gains should be? I have about $2000 to work with right now, so I'm just trying to figure out how much this is going to cost and what kind of gains I'm going to get.
Will I need a new T/B and "or" MAF sensor? What are the other hidden cost?
11-25-2002, 09:36 AM
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Re: Need H/C help. Your exhaust mods are excellent, so a straight-pattern cam will do well for you. However, you have an M6 and haven't mentioned any gears, so I assume you're still running 3.42's.
If you keep your stock gears, I would keep the duration at 220 or lower, & you probably won't need any tuning. If you get some gears, you could go up to 224 duration or so --- you'll need to drill the TB, and might need tuning. Look at the MTI T1 or B1, or at the TR 220 or 224 cams.
W/ an M6 you can run a 112 LSA, if you don't mind a lopey idle.
W/ your budget, I would look at Absolute's Stage 1x heads, especially if you can get in on the group purchase. They will work well w/ a cam in the .550" range.
If you keep your stock gears, I would keep the duration at 220 or lower, & you probably won't need any tuning. If you get some gears, you could go up to 224 duration or so --- you'll need to drill the TB, and might need tuning. Look at the MTI T1 or B1, or at the TR 220 or 224 cams.
W/ an M6 you can run a 112 LSA, if you don't mind a lopey idle.
W/ your budget, I would look at Absolute's Stage 1x heads, especially if you can get in on the group purchase. They will work well w/ a cam in the .550" range.
11-25-2002, 01:25 PM
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Re: Need H/C help. Thanks for the help, but I am left with a lot of questions.....
Do I need to change my gears?
How much HP differance is there between most stage 1 and stage 2 heads? Is it worth the differance? Where should I go to get these parts?
Basically I would like to know some optioins that I have and the differances in price and HP.
I don't mind a lopey idle. I am willing to save for awhile longer, I want to do this right.
Oh yeah, the numbers you gave me mean nothing to me. Could someone explain what the numbers associated with this stuff means?
No tuning? I thought I would have to tune it no matter what. I think it needs tuning right now. "Headers making it run rich" Is there away I can get away with doing a H/C install without the expensive tuning? Or would I be giving up HP?
Do I need to change my gears?
How much HP differance is there between most stage 1 and stage 2 heads? Is it worth the differance? Where should I go to get these parts?
Basically I would like to know some optioins that I have and the differances in price and HP.
I don't mind a lopey idle. I am willing to save for awhile longer, I want to do this right.
Oh yeah, the numbers you gave me mean nothing to me. Could someone explain what the numbers associated with this stuff means?
No tuning? I thought I would have to tune it no matter what. I think it needs tuning right now. "Headers making it run rich" Is there away I can get away with doing a H/C install without the expensive tuning? Or would I be giving up HP?
11-25-2002, 02:56 PM
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Re: Need H/C help. You need to do a little homework. To learn some basics about what the various cam specifications really mean, go to www.compcams.com, and read the "timing tutorial". It explains terms such as duration, lift, lobe separation angle, etc.
You don't absolutely have to change gears, but an aftermarket cam will probably push your power curve higher, and lower gears will help keep your revs higher.
There CAN be quite a horsepower difference between Stage 1 (stock valve), Stage 2 (larger valves) and Stage 3 (monster valves) IF you have the camshaft and other mods to go along with it. For a street car, I would stick to Stage 1 or 2. The bigger the valves, the more expensive the heads.
Where can you go for these parts? Try the sponsors. LPE, TEA, GTP, ARE, Absolute --- they all sell heads. You can also usually find a set of used heads at a good discount.
As for tuning, there's a difference between tuning for power, and tuning for driveability. When you install a big cam, you might need "tuning" to get a decent idle, and also to get the proper A/F mix to maximize power output. As yu pointed out, you also need tuning to adjust the A/F mix after a header install.
You don't absolutely have to change gears, but an aftermarket cam will probably push your power curve higher, and lower gears will help keep your revs higher.
There CAN be quite a horsepower difference between Stage 1 (stock valve), Stage 2 (larger valves) and Stage 3 (monster valves) IF you have the camshaft and other mods to go along with it. For a street car, I would stick to Stage 1 or 2. The bigger the valves, the more expensive the heads.
Where can you go for these parts? Try the sponsors. LPE, TEA, GTP, ARE, Absolute --- they all sell heads. You can also usually find a set of used heads at a good discount.
As for tuning, there's a difference between tuning for power, and tuning for driveability. When you install a big cam, you might need "tuning" to get a decent idle, and also to get the proper A/F mix to maximize power output. As yu pointed out, you also need tuning to adjust the A/F mix after a header install.
11-26-2002, 12:13 AM
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Re: Need H/C help. I cannot get that web sight to open on my computer...I don't know whats wrong with it. Are there any other places I could go and read about this?
Are there any good kits out there? Could someone recomend a proven set up close to what I'm looking for? How much HP can you get out of a good set of Stage 1 or 2 heads and a cam. Everywhere I look they are saying 400+. Just how much is that +?
Thanks for the help.
Are there any good kits out there? Could someone recomend a proven set up close to what I'm looking for? How much HP can you get out of a good set of Stage 1 or 2 heads and a cam. Everywhere I look they are saying 400+. Just how much is that +?
Thanks for the help.
11-26-2002, 10:40 PM
#6
Re: Need H/C help. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Black01M6SS:
[QB]
I have about $2000 to work with right now, so I'm just trying to figure out how much this is going to cost and what kind of gains I'm going to get.
[QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">TEA is going to be very hard to beat for the cost and power. www.totalengineairflow.com Call and ask to speak with Brian.
With that said here is what my heads and cam package cost me. I had most of the bolt on stuff before buying heads and cam.
TEA 5.3 Stage II heads $1600 Group Purchase special
SRP 224 XE-R cam $400
LS6 intake $400
MTI tuniing $500
Katech oil pump $110
Rollmaster 2x Timing chain $85
Install kit $225
ATI dampner $500
$3820 in parts
Fixing parts that weren't right $105
Replacing parts that weren't right $400 because I had a EGR less Vette intake instead of an LS6 intake.
$505
or $4325 in parts.
If I'd skipped the ATI and got the right intake that would have trimmed almost $1000 off the cost.
But my point is I would want to think at least $4000 to do heads and cam IF you do the install. If you pay someone to do the install then add about a $1000
[QB]
I have about $2000 to work with right now, so I'm just trying to figure out how much this is going to cost and what kind of gains I'm going to get.
[QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">TEA is going to be very hard to beat for the cost and power. www.totalengineairflow.com Call and ask to speak with Brian.
With that said here is what my heads and cam package cost me. I had most of the bolt on stuff before buying heads and cam.
TEA 5.3 Stage II heads $1600 Group Purchase special
SRP 224 XE-R cam $400
LS6 intake $400
MTI tuniing $500
Katech oil pump $110
Rollmaster 2x Timing chain $85
Install kit $225
ATI dampner $500
$3820 in parts
Fixing parts that weren't right $105
Replacing parts that weren't right $400 because I had a EGR less Vette intake instead of an LS6 intake.
$505
or $4325 in parts.
If I'd skipped the ATI and got the right intake that would have trimmed almost $1000 off the cost.
But my point is I would want to think at least $4000 to do heads and cam IF you do the install. If you pay someone to do the install then add about a $1000
11-26-2002, 11:00 PM
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Re: Need H/C help. I have been talking with Wade at ARE about a big bore LS1 and he has been very helpful.I have a set of GTP st3 6.0 heads but I think I am going to trade them towards ARE st3 heads to go with my new motor.Off the top of my head I do not know the prices but ARE seems to have more cars in the 11's then anyone else.They do not show big HP numbers on there dyno but there cars run really quick.So I have chose to go with them for my new combo.Dyno and flow numbers use to mean everything to me but now I realise they are all just tools so in my opinion if you want to run the numbers give ARE a call.
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11-27-2002, 12:28 AM
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Re: Need H/C help. $5000!!! Thats a little to much for me I was thinking I would just need the heads, cam, and tuning. I have a friend with the tools that can help with the install. I will have to pay him, but I'm sure it won't be much. I'm thinking more like $1600 for the heads $400 for the cam, and $500 for tuning. Am I off here?
I already have the LS6 intake and headers so I won't have to fool with all that. Do I need a new timing chain? Oil pump? Dampner....you lost me on that one.
I already have the LS6 intake and headers so I won't have to fool with all that. Do I need a new timing chain? Oil pump? Dampner....you lost me on that one.
11-27-2002, 03:36 AM
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Re: Need H/C help. I have read the tutorials and I understand most of what I read, but I still don't know which cam and head set up is going to give me the most reliable power. Thats why I'm asking yall.
Here is what I'm thinking....
Absolute Speed stage 2 heads. $1500
Comp cam. $380
Are those heads good? I don't know how to pick the cam. The four I am looking at have the following spec's.
Lift: Dur@.050 LSA: 112
.563/.563 224/224 114
Lift: Dur@.050 LSA: 112
.581/.581 224/224 114
Lift: Dur@.050 LSA: 112
.563/.563 224/228 114
Lift: Dur@.050 LSA: 112
.570/.570 270/230
Would a custom grind cam be better?
What other parts do I need for this to work?
I'm just trying to narrow down my search.
Thanks for the help so far, but I need more lol.
Here is what I'm thinking....
Absolute Speed stage 2 heads. $1500
Comp cam. $380
Are those heads good? I don't know how to pick the cam. The four I am looking at have the following spec's.
Lift: Dur@.050 LSA: 112
.563/.563 224/224 114
Lift: Dur@.050 LSA: 112
.581/.581 224/224 114
Lift: Dur@.050 LSA: 112
.563/.563 224/228 114
Lift: Dur@.050 LSA: 112
.570/.570 270/230
Would a custom grind cam be better?
What other parts do I need for this to work?
I'm just trying to narrow down my search.
Thanks for the help so far, but I need more lol.
11-27-2002, 06:59 AM
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Re: Need H/C help. Couple of thoughts.....
The Absolute heads are excellent, and Jay gives great customer service. If you're on a budget, I would consider his Stage 1x heads --- they have stock size swirl-polished valves, and are quite a bit cheaper. They will still flow very well --- I will publish the flow numbers next week.
If you stay w/ a modest lift (.550" or less) , you can use LS6 springs instead of CC 918's, & save a few more $$$.
If you keep your duration around 220 or so, you may not need to drill your TB, and you may not need much tuning. You can buy a used MAF Translator for $100 or so, and do most of your A/F tuning w/ it instead of paying for custom tuning. If you do a few dyno pulls at a shop w/ a wide-band O2 sensor, it will show you your A/F mix at every RPM.
Since you already have headers, a 220/220 .550" lift 112 LSA cam should give you 400+ HP, w/ great driveability. Your valvetrain won't be too noisy, and your springs will last more than 25K miles. The powerband of this cam will complement your 3.42 gears, as well.
The Absolute heads are excellent, and Jay gives great customer service. If you're on a budget, I would consider his Stage 1x heads --- they have stock size swirl-polished valves, and are quite a bit cheaper. They will still flow very well --- I will publish the flow numbers next week.
If you stay w/ a modest lift (.550" or less) , you can use LS6 springs instead of CC 918's, & save a few more $$$.
If you keep your duration around 220 or so, you may not need to drill your TB, and you may not need much tuning. You can buy a used MAF Translator for $100 or so, and do most of your A/F tuning w/ it instead of paying for custom tuning. If you do a few dyno pulls at a shop w/ a wide-band O2 sensor, it will show you your A/F mix at every RPM.
Since you already have headers, a 220/220 .550" lift 112 LSA cam should give you 400+ HP, w/ great driveability. Your valvetrain won't be too noisy, and your springs will last more than 25K miles. The powerband of this cam will complement your 3.42 gears, as well.
11-27-2002, 05:54 PM
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Re: Need H/C help. My budget depends on how long I want to wait. My goal is to make this car a 450HP daily driver. From what I have read, I probably won't get there, but I would like to get as close as possable. I know if I get stage 1 heads and a mild cam, I would just be looking for something better in a few months. "Unless I could get the kind of HP I'm wanting out of them"
I wouldn't mind having to change the springs every 25,000 miles. Sure, I would like to save money, but I also want to do this right the first time, and to me that means getting the most HP possable.
I wouldn't mind having to change the springs every 25,000 miles. Sure, I would like to save money, but I also want to do this right the first time, and to me that means getting the most HP possable.
11-27-2002, 07:43 PM
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Re: Need H/C help. Nasty Performance Heads and cam kit
Nasty Performance Stage 1 Heads-fully hand ported, stock valves w/multi angle valve job, new seals, new Comp Cams 918 springs, Assembled.
$1100
Nasty Performance Stage 2 Heads-Fully hand ported,
2.02in 1.60ex valves, cut for more compression, bowls ported, new seals, macined for double valve springs.
$1700
Comp Cams custom cam kit cam, pushrods, Tit. retainers, and locks.
$700
All gaskets and bolts
$225
Custom Tuning
$500
Nate
Nasty Performance Stage 1 Heads-fully hand ported, stock valves w/multi angle valve job, new seals, new Comp Cams 918 springs, Assembled.
$1100
Nasty Performance Stage 2 Heads-Fully hand ported,
2.02in 1.60ex valves, cut for more compression, bowls ported, new seals, macined for double valve springs.
$1700
Comp Cams custom cam kit cam, pushrods, Tit. retainers, and locks.
$700
All gaskets and bolts
$225
Custom Tuning
$500
Nate
11-27-2002, 07:51 PM
#13
Re: Need H/C help. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Black01M6SS:
<strong>$5000!!! Thats a little to much for me I was thinking I would just need the heads, cam, and tuning. I have a friend with the tools that can help with the install. I will have to pay him, but I'm sure it won't be much. I'm thinking more like $1600 for the heads $400 for the cam, and $500 for tuning. Am I off here?
I already have the LS6 intake and headers so I won't have to fool with all that. Do I need a new timing chain? Oil pump? Dampner....you lost me on that one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Black,
I understand completely as I didn't plan to spend that either!
Let's say you return your cores and have NONE of the problems I had. You have your headers and intake so that helps.
Stage II heads/Absolute $1600 Group
Cam $350
Get a deal on tuning $375
Keep stock oil pump
Keep stock pulley
new stock Timing chain $35
Install kit $225
Shipping all this stuff will add some cost too. say another $100
$2685 in parts & shipping
Personally, I don't like IRS as I know people they screwed. I would want my tuning done by someone that very experienced, usually those people can and do charge a little more. Many run the stock oil pump but if you want to replace doing heads and cam is the right time. I don't like the stock chain too many have broke. A least get a Rollmaster single roller for a few dollars more. Install kits like gaskets and new bolts vary in price $225 is a pretty good deal might be $250. Don't for get new plugs, oil, oil filter, dexcool, new crank bolt, good time to do new plug wires too while your in there, might have to buy a new tool or two etc. That stuff will add up too. Odd's and ends could be another $150 easy.
$2835
I wouldn't even consider doing it myself with less than $3000 and that's skipping a few things it would be nice to do while your in there. With someone to do it for maybe another $1000. Never know what type of problems might turn up either so you want to have a little extra cash to deal with it if stuff goes wrong and you have to have your PCM overnighted back to you something.
I'm sure others have done this for less etc...just sharing my experience with heads and cam.
Oh and it's well worth once the car is up and running too!
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
<strong>$5000!!! Thats a little to much for me I was thinking I would just need the heads, cam, and tuning. I have a friend with the tools that can help with the install. I will have to pay him, but I'm sure it won't be much. I'm thinking more like $1600 for the heads $400 for the cam, and $500 for tuning. Am I off here?
I already have the LS6 intake and headers so I won't have to fool with all that. Do I need a new timing chain? Oil pump? Dampner....you lost me on that one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Black,
I understand completely as I didn't plan to spend that either!
Let's say you return your cores and have NONE of the problems I had. You have your headers and intake so that helps.
Stage II heads/Absolute $1600 Group
Cam $350
Get a deal on tuning $375
Keep stock oil pump
Keep stock pulley
new stock Timing chain $35
Install kit $225
Shipping all this stuff will add some cost too. say another $100
$2685 in parts & shipping
Personally, I don't like IRS as I know people they screwed. I would want my tuning done by someone that very experienced, usually those people can and do charge a little more. Many run the stock oil pump but if you want to replace doing heads and cam is the right time. I don't like the stock chain too many have broke. A least get a Rollmaster single roller for a few dollars more. Install kits like gaskets and new bolts vary in price $225 is a pretty good deal might be $250. Don't for get new plugs, oil, oil filter, dexcool, new crank bolt, good time to do new plug wires too while your in there, might have to buy a new tool or two etc. That stuff will add up too. Odd's and ends could be another $150 easy.
$2835
I wouldn't even consider doing it myself with less than $3000 and that's skipping a few things it would be nice to do while your in there. With someone to do it for maybe another $1000. Never know what type of problems might turn up either so you want to have a little extra cash to deal with it if stuff goes wrong and you have to have your PCM overnighted back to you something.
I'm sure others have done this for less etc...just sharing my experience with heads and cam.
Oh and it's well worth once the car is up and running too!
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />