technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what
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On The Tree
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Texas
technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what If i go to a speedshop and they recommend a cam (etc.) and they say cam will make xx hp/tq but after install cam does not perform as promised...who is responsible for what (?) removal of cam ($) and replacement with another cam ($)...or just replacing oringinal equipment...how much of these $$ is customer responsible for and how much should speedshop be responsible for???? Do you guys commonly discuss this with speedshop before they do work or is there some common "code of ethics" that speedshop should be held to...? thanks.
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From: Albuquerque NM - The Land of 8000ft DA
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what To start with they should of have not done that, technically speaking for the exact reason you are posting. So they won't be held accountable if it doesn't produce.
There are so many variables involved that its hard to say for sure if the engine will or will not produce the estimated output. Even if the combination i.e. heads, cam etc has proven to produce above and beyond the output stated.
Every car is different and will respond differently to the same modifications.
Should they be held accountable? Thats hard to say. How do they know if there isn't something wrong with your car to begin with?
Its very debatable.
There are so many variables involved that its hard to say for sure if the engine will or will not produce the estimated output. Even if the combination i.e. heads, cam etc has proven to produce above and beyond the output stated.
Every car is different and will respond differently to the same modifications.
Should they be held accountable? Thats hard to say. How do they know if there isn't something wrong with your car to begin with?
Its very debatable.
TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Hartsdale, NY
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what ..not only that but ....I suspect dynos are not all that accurate, if that is how you are basing your performance measurements...
...so how much difference are we talking about...?
...i suppose it would be easier to negoitate if the stated claims were in writting....most shops will not do this, however....
...so how much difference are we talking about...?
...i suppose it would be easier to negoitate if the stated claims were in writting....most shops will not do this, however....
TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,055
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From: Hartsdale, NY
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what Mechanics code of ethics:
1. Promise a bunch
2. Deliever what you can
3. Charge through the nose
4. Blame everyone else if something goes wrong!
???????????????????????????????????
Sorry guys, I could not resist after the public bashing accountants received over Enron...
1. Promise a bunch
2. Deliever what you can
3. Charge through the nose
4. Blame everyone else if something goes wrong!
???????????????????????????????????
Sorry guys, I could not resist after the public bashing accountants received over Enron...
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 593
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From: Chicago Heights, IL
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what Any reputable speedshop should be able to give you an estimate of what your car should run, based on similar mods from other customers cars, but to guarantee that you will make X amount of power is just irresponsible on their part.
You could take 10 LS1s with all the same parts, and give them to 10 different people, then dyno all 10 of them on 10 different dynos and come up with 10 different numbers. Thats just the way it is, and its also the biggest reason why the dyno is not the be all/end all gauge for performance.
You could take 10 LS1s with all the same parts, and give them to 10 different people, then dyno all 10 of them on 10 different dynos and come up with 10 different numbers. Thats just the way it is, and its also the biggest reason why the dyno is not the be all/end all gauge for performance.
On The Tree
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: KC
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what It's all on you. Sorry.
I'm just a customer, but I assume anything other than fraud like slipping in a different cam or full priced used parts or negligence like mistorqueing/bad install is on me.
Who did the tuning? A vortex adds way too much weirdness for any estimates of gains. Could be it's other than the cam...maxed injectors, who knows.
I'm just a customer, but I assume anything other than fraud like slipping in a different cam or full priced used parts or negligence like mistorqueing/bad install is on me.
Who did the tuning? A vortex adds way too much weirdness for any estimates of gains. Could be it's other than the cam...maxed injectors, who knows.
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On The Tree
Joined: May 2002
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From: MO
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what Being in customer service, we have to deliver what we say or pay. My business is regulated by the government tho.
If you have a gentlemen's agreement, it should be honored or work towards a solution agreeable to each. Its called customer service...
If they broke something as result of their work or caused a failed part due to stress or heat, I think they should try and support you for the mony you have to pay to get it fixed, example, promised high numbers, but may have abused a part to get that high number, on the way home it breaks or doesn't drive the same, I think they should support you to determine the cause and possibly be liable for the damages. Its called customer service.
My 2 cents
If you have a gentlemen's agreement, it should be honored or work towards a solution agreeable to each. Its called customer service...
If they broke something as result of their work or caused a failed part due to stress or heat, I think they should try and support you for the mony you have to pay to get it fixed, example, promised high numbers, but may have abused a part to get that high number, on the way home it breaks or doesn't drive the same, I think they should support you to determine the cause and possibly be liable for the damages. Its called customer service.
My 2 cents
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Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what If the cam or performance part is reccomended by a shop and it dynos in the range of what the part should do, then you should be happy. If the performance is way off there needs to be a conversation.
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what May I ask which cam it was? First of all, I think you should independently verify that this particular cam should really produce about 40 rwhp. It will need to be at least the size of a TR224 to do that IMO. Second, find out why it didn't; e.g. tuning or install issues. Third, negotiate with them to have them straighten out. If they won't work with you, put together some documentation and hire a lawyer.
TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Hartsdale, NY
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what Question:
Were the before and after dyno's done on the same machine with aproximately the same conditions?
Are you a full bolt-on car? Most cam swaps would not perform to their max if the car has intake or exhasut restrictions...do you have LT headers, LS6 intake, etc?
A peak 10Hp gain does not seem too high; but peak HP is not as important as the HP under the curve....maybe this is much improved????
How does the car feel?
Were the before and after dyno's done on the same machine with aproximately the same conditions?
Are you a full bolt-on car? Most cam swaps would not perform to their max if the car has intake or exhasut restrictions...do you have LT headers, LS6 intake, etc?
A peak 10Hp gain does not seem too high; but peak HP is not as important as the HP under the curve....maybe this is much improved????
How does the car feel?
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what Was there a before and after dyno, and did the car receive pcm tuning/ how was the A/F on the last dyno?
Launching!
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 272
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From: Cincinnati, Ohio
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what As far as I'm concerned, the shop is not obligated to make additional repairs *unless* they promised you a certain HP output, which would be really stupid on their part. However, what they should or shouldn't do as we see it adds up to exactly bupkis. They will act in accordance to their policies on customer service/complaints.
Their is a reason you chose this shop for your install, let's assume it's because either you, or a friend had a good experience with them in the past. That being said, if they are a good shop, they should be willing to work with you to correct the problem. If they shine you on and tell you "sorry bub" tell them you'll pursue it legally. Gather whatever documentation you have, and I'm sure you have no promise of power gain in writing, contact an attorney and seek advice on the matter. We're wrenchers, not lawyers, and whereas there is no harm in seeking our opinions on this, this is *completely* between you, the shop, and council.
Their is a reason you chose this shop for your install, let's assume it's because either you, or a friend had a good experience with them in the past. That being said, if they are a good shop, they should be willing to work with you to correct the problem. If they shine you on and tell you "sorry bub" tell them you'll pursue it legally. Gather whatever documentation you have, and I'm sure you have no promise of power gain in writing, contact an attorney and seek advice on the matter. We're wrenchers, not lawyers, and whereas there is no harm in seeking our opinions on this, this is *completely* between you, the shop, and council.
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what Before you undertake your pending project, it's always wise to be armed with as much information as possible. Look for comparable projects on this site, and find out what level of performance they've delivered. Also, ask questions of those who have attempted same to see what shortcomings there may be. This way you'll generally know what to expect.
Relying on one establishment to give you the entire picture without doing your own footwork first can lead to disappointment.
The order of the day should be "caveat emptor"(let the buyer beware)!
Relying on one establishment to give you the entire picture without doing your own footwork first can lead to disappointment.
The order of the day should be "caveat emptor"(let the buyer beware)!
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 143
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From: Texas
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what did the homework both Forum(s) and other cars with "the cam", cars with exactly same mods, base hp/tq...blah-blah...shop is working with me trying to understand what the heck happened (i trust shop)...but appears either cam is bad or my car just doesn't like it (?)...question becomes if cam not up to specs who pays what (?)
Re: technical work..code of ethics..who is responsible for what As for legal action, that could get very dicey if the car is a street driven car. How is one going to take legal action against a tuner for failing to do an illegal modification to the customers satisfaction? Tuners know legal action won't go anywhere most of the time with a street car. It's buyer beware and know who your going business with otherwise one can really get screwed. Hopefully the shop will figure the issue out and resolve it.
Have they determined the tranny isn't slipping? A few times cars didn't make the power because the clutch wasn't up to it.
Have they determined the tranny isn't slipping? A few times cars didn't make the power because the clutch wasn't up to it.