LS3 Timing Chain Failure :(
This thread might be of interest to you.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/10536978-post23.html
Post #23 discusses something very similar...and mentions a solution.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/10536978-post23.html
Post #23 discusses something very similar...and mentions a solution.
I spoke with Cloyes about this at length and asked for their most badass chain that would work with stock gears. The man gave me part number 9-194. It is listed as obselete in their system as when it was developed, double rollers hadn't hit the market yet. After the LS2's came out with their stouter chain and the double rollers took off, there was no market for a single roller where the chain itself cost $360 alone.
According to Cloyes, they did direct testing with the C5R chain, which they said offered little additional snap strength over the beefier LS2 chains from the factory. He rattled off a number of specifics about the 9-194 chain(head treated, pre-stretched, media blasted, better alloys, cold rolled pins, hand chosen/fitted links, etc), but the most important statistic was that he said it was stronger than the C5R chain(the chain itself is an IRL chain that I believe comes on their premium timing sets for the LS1/LS6's).
According to Cloyes, they did direct testing with the C5R chain, which they said offered little additional snap strength over the beefier LS2 chains from the factory. He rattled off a number of specifics about the 9-194 chain(head treated, pre-stretched, media blasted, better alloys, cold rolled pins, hand chosen/fitted links, etc), but the most important statistic was that he said it was stronger than the C5R chain(the chain itself is an IRL chain that I believe comes on their premium timing sets for the LS1/LS6's).
Here's the information from a 2002 Cloyes catalog on the 9-194 chain:
Last edited by 405HP_Z06; Dec 17, 2008 at 02:02 PM.
Thread Starter
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From: Alpharetta, Ga
This thread might be of interest to you.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/10536978-post23.html
Post #23 discusses something very similar...and mentions a solution.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/10536978-post23.html
Post #23 discusses something very similar...and mentions a solution.
Thread Starter
TECH Regular
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 440
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From: Alpharetta, Ga
That must be it. I just bought one. Here is what they look like http://www.jegs.com/i/Cloyes/220/9-194/10002/-1?CT=999
Last edited by 405HP_Z06; Dec 17, 2008 at 02:13 PM.
Thread Starter
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From: Alpharetta, Ga
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Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Gladstone, Queensland, Australia
If you call Ian MacDonald from www.lsxworks.com he will be able to tell you exactly the details of the JWIS chain on the rollmaster set. He would also know the katech as he has travelled to the factories where they are amde. Weather or not they are pre stretced I am unsure. Most guys still recommend LS2 chains or go to the katech which is meant to be the best but I didnt want to take any risks as I have a xfi cam so the double row went in for security
To clear up the IWIS/JWIS, here are the facts (per Jim Hamilton at Cloyes):
"I notice you used JWIS, which is actually more correct, but years back so many people mistook the J, thinking it was an “I” that they adopted the tradename IWIS, the JWIS logo stands for “Joh. Winklhofer & Sohne” – I got this from the Iwis guys back when Cloyes and Iwis had a joint venture, anyway)"
There are several JWIS chains available in the correct 3/8 pitch for our cars, each of varying strength and quality. Bottom line, JWIS does not necessarily mean its better than the rest as it depends on which one you have. The Katech chain is one of the best ones that JWIS makes. Here is part of an e-mail I received from Michael Weikert of iwis motorsysteme GmbH & Co., Muenchen,Germany:
"The rooler chain G68V-2 is one of our best 3/8" roller chains ......
For your information the G68V-2 is the series chain for the BMW M V10-Engine and its appropriate for high numbers of revolutions."
I just installed the Cloyes 9-3153AL with the IRL timing chain when I did my swap last month to an AFR 6016 cam and AFR 205 heads. The IRL chain is an excellent part. I also had on hand a new Katech chain that I was going to use but I needed an adjustable timing set so someone got a screaming deal on a new Katech chain. Anyhow, the IRL chain was made by Renold (no longer available) and was hand assembled, blue printed and shot peened. Below is a comparison of my original 2002 LS1 chain, the Katech chain and the IRL chain.
Question for the OP, what does the LS3 chain damper look like, is it the same as the LS2?
"I notice you used JWIS, which is actually more correct, but years back so many people mistook the J, thinking it was an “I” that they adopted the tradename IWIS, the JWIS logo stands for “Joh. Winklhofer & Sohne” – I got this from the Iwis guys back when Cloyes and Iwis had a joint venture, anyway)"
There are several JWIS chains available in the correct 3/8 pitch for our cars, each of varying strength and quality. Bottom line, JWIS does not necessarily mean its better than the rest as it depends on which one you have. The Katech chain is one of the best ones that JWIS makes. Here is part of an e-mail I received from Michael Weikert of iwis motorsysteme GmbH & Co., Muenchen,Germany:
"The rooler chain G68V-2 is one of our best 3/8" roller chains ......
For your information the G68V-2 is the series chain for the BMW M V10-Engine and its appropriate for high numbers of revolutions."
I just installed the Cloyes 9-3153AL with the IRL timing chain when I did my swap last month to an AFR 6016 cam and AFR 205 heads. The IRL chain is an excellent part. I also had on hand a new Katech chain that I was going to use but I needed an adjustable timing set so someone got a screaming deal on a new Katech chain. Anyhow, the IRL chain was made by Renold (no longer available) and was hand assembled, blue printed and shot peened. Below is a comparison of my original 2002 LS1 chain, the Katech chain and the IRL chain.
Question for the OP, what does the LS3 chain damper look like, is it the same as the LS2?
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Brett Foote
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Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Gladstone, Queensland, Australia
ouch!
I broke the LS3 tensioner on my engine and I have seen it done on several others in the australian delivered L98 which is a L76 without DOD basically.
You need to order a 52X timing set.
The cloyes are a good part as are katech, Turns out there are several from JWIS however as mentioned Ian Mac went through the factories and knows whats what with them all. He deals with them everyday so I obtain my info from him. But I am glad I went the double row in mine. Even if I didnt and I went the factory chain it appears to stretch a fair bit and IMO there would be little strength differences between the stock LS2 chain and a high end aftermarket single, grades of metal would all meet a minimum specified chemical structure.
cheers
Joel
I broke the LS3 tensioner on my engine and I have seen it done on several others in the australian delivered L98 which is a L76 without DOD basically.
You need to order a 52X timing set.
The cloyes are a good part as are katech, Turns out there are several from JWIS however as mentioned Ian Mac went through the factories and knows whats what with them all. He deals with them everyday so I obtain my info from him. But I am glad I went the double row in mine. Even if I didnt and I went the factory chain it appears to stretch a fair bit and IMO there would be little strength differences between the stock LS2 chain and a high end aftermarket single, grades of metal would all meet a minimum specified chemical structure.
cheers
Joel
I am wondering if you would be better off with the LS2 damper, assuming it fits the LS3. Chain wrap on the lower sprocket, especially when you let off throttle after being on throttle (off throttle whip) is an issue with these motors. The LS2 damper prevents this.
^ Was your block drilled/tapped for teh GMPP chain dampener? I bought one when doing my cam swap but found that my '01 LS6 block didn't have any provisions for it.
My car took 70k miles, many at VIR w/o issue. For the cam swap I upgraded to the LS2 chain and left everything else alone.
My car took 70k miles, many at VIR w/o issue. For the cam swap I upgraded to the LS2 chain and left everything else alone.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Alpharetta, Ga
Are you saying the LS3 timing chain damper is easily broken? That being the case, I will go with an LS7 setup if necessary. I was unaware of any double rollers that fit the LS3 without clearance issues.
Great info, as always. It looks like the OP purchased the Cloyes 9-194 chain from Jegs, are you sure it's no longer available? I know it's no longer in the Cloyes catalog.
, although they were always curious and helpful.