460 RHS block build at Nelson Racing Engines
 

Well, I've been gathering parts for this for some time now and the block is finally getting machined.

First off this is a short deck RHS block build using really good stuff, so it's not "budget" or cheap.

Tom Nelson over at Nelson Racing Engines is doing the machine work and helping with the assembly. I will say the RHS block is REALLY nice. I spoke with them today and there's no need to line hone or do much work. We just need to bore and hone the block. But, we will check the hone just to see and we might deck it if the piston is to far in the hole.

Basic Specs:

RHS short deck block - 4.155 bore
Mast Motorsports 12-degree heads
Lunati Pro Crank - 4.250 stroke
Lunati Pro I-beam rods - 6.125"
Wiseco pistons, coated skirts, 11.4:1
ARP everything
FAST 102mm LS3 style intake
CHE bushed LS7 rockers
COMP vertical bar lifters, pushrods, timing chain, etc
Moroso oil pump

We have two camshafts to try.. one is really snotty.. both are hyd.

First pics:


http://i29.tinypic.com/2m3jzih.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/2mpertw.jpg

awesome build, awesome car, awesome name.

keep the pics comin

Snotty cams rule! That block is beautiful! Go solid roller....

Here's a look inside.. what caught my attention was the provisions for oil squirters.

The sad news is that they won't be out in time for me to use... but it's nice to know they are on the way. There are four ports and each port will support two emmiters.

http://i30.tinypic.com/2dgiyie.jpg

Opened up the Mast Motorsports "black lable" heads today and they are beautiful..

LS3 12 Degree 4.125 - 4.200 Large Bore CNC 6-Bolt
Solid Steel Race Valves 2.200 Intake
Solid Steel Race Valves 1.060 Exhaust
GM OEM LS7 Rocker Stands
Dual Premium Nitrided
Ti Dual Spring Retainer
Steel Dual Spring Locator
Machined Steel 7 Degree

http://i30.tinypic.com/bkc48.jpg

Nah.. hyd roller for me.. remember that I don't built drag cars, I need low and midrange torque

And I put street manners over making the most power possible. Hence the two cams, one to get a good number and one to run in the car.. although I be tempted to keep the bigger cam depending on the numbers.

If you guys have any RHS block questions fire away.. I have lots of pics.

Here's the Lunati 4.250 pro crank... :yum:

http://i30.tinypic.com/zyd76c.jpg

Very Nice !

Nice build none the less! Good luck with the build!

Nice looking parts you have started with. Good luck.

any particular reason you would like to use oil squirters on an N/A application? are you going to road race with this motor?

gotta love heavy metal, takes a few slugs to balance these big stroke LS cranks. Looking good.

Yea.. LOTS of mallory..

Because they are cool? lol

Actually we do road racing type stuff.. so anthing that cools is a good thing. and there really wouldn't be a downside to running them or even a huge cost besides the cost of the squirters (since the block is already ready for them)

nice biuld......keep them coming

Very nice build. What type of #s are you expecting?

How much did the Mast heads set you back?

That looks amazing, keep up the updates.

Ive always loved your car, very clean and built to perform. You aren't afraid to put it through its paces either it seems :thumb:. Can't wait to see the dyno graph and some new vids!

If you have to ask then... lol

But seriously, this is for magazine build story so we don't pay full retail. I know the heads are expensive, but I will say they look pretty top shelf. Pretty impressive flow numbers as well.

Near 700 hp and maybe 660 ft-lbs.. Hard to say since this is outside my usual LS builds.

My 454 made 650/624 and this one has better heads, a bit more displacement and a more aggressive cam.

what magazine? (i only get gmhtp.. so far)

Camaro Performers

Very nice Steve. .. Nice choice on the heads!

RHS just sent this over. Shows how the piston squirters will work with just four ports.

http://i26.tinypic.com/2meezq.jpg

Yea, if they flow as good as they look then we're in great shape.. almost too pretty to use!

http://i28.tinypic.com/2ykdnvt.jpg

So that block allows for lifter changes without head removal?

This will definitely be my N/A LS dream engine. It will be pretty sick for Bad Penny to tear up the autocross and road courses... Not that Penny isn't already pretty capable.

Am I reading this right? 460 ci?!!!!!!

Yea, there's plenty of room to lift the COMP vertical bar lifters. Which made me real happy since I didn't want to pull the heads to do a cam swap on the dyno. RHS said that with work you can make the plastic lifter trays work but it's not worth the effort.

And thanks for the comments on Penny, she's coming along.

Well, to be picky it's a 461...

mmmmmm

I didn't even know that was possible on any lsx block, let alone a short deck.

Well.. theoretically we could have gone as big as 4.165 on the bore and made a 463, but pistons are harder to source and it's not worth the hassle for another two cubes.

My shortdeck shortblock is 468ci (4.185 bore), and I could have gone 470 even (4.200 bore), this was with an ERL superdeck 1 (shortdeck) block.

I was reading about the RHS block earlier, I believe it said that it could go all the way to 502ci. Rediculous

This build is AWESOME! I'm subscribing, can't wait to see some results. Also, did I miss it, or what vehicle is this monster going in?

Alot of the high RPM import guys are taking them out because the oil throws the motor off balance at high RPM. The Parts list looks good!

Yea, the tall decks can go that big. I didn't go that route because I didn't want to screw with an intake and mess with my current headers.

Here's the car it's going in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZiMdUAM0sI

i wouldnt run that heavy 2.200 solid steel valve with a hydraulic cam, and want it to rev high.... but i am just a fan of lightweight valvetrain i guess

Wild build

In hindsight I should have ordered the hollow valves.. so many details it's easy to miss one. Might call Mast on Monday and inquire.

The rockers are nice and light at least.. :)

i was actually gonna ask about that, but i figured you went with them for strength (i havent done much research into valvestrength, but i know the stock valves in the ls3 heads im using have hollow intake stems)

I hope we get midbuild pics, i wanna see all the cool moving stuff before it gets shtuck in the car.

Yea, I will update along the build.. will also let ya know what I decide on the valves.. it's a whole weight vs strength deal.. I'm not really look to do crazy revs. Most of my action happens from 3,000 to 6,000k

Thats kinda what i was figuring.

whats happening to the old engine btw?

Going into a buddies '67... I'm just breaking it in for him. lol

Talked with Horace over at Mast today..

We won't be crazy reving the engine so the solids would be "ok", but we decided to move to the hollow ones.

To be honest this is what I would have ordered, but I didn't check the right box when placing my order. Easy to miss the little things in the big picture.

Canton oil pan should be here Wednesday and then we will mod it to handle the stroke.

How are you baffeling it? Any other out-of-the-norm stuff for oiling, or KISS?

The pan itself comes with a nice trap door system. I then run out the pan (10AN) to a Canton t-stat set at 215-degrees. When tripped the oil passes through a Setrab 925 cooler.

From that system the oil return back to the engine passing through a Canton remote filter mount with a KN filter.

Some people like dry sump but the Canton pan has seen me through MANY hard road race tracks with no oil issues.

Although, with all the plumbing I would like more PSI. Right now I'm 60+ cold and at hot idle I'm down to 22.. cruise is 35 ish PSI. You can see the oil system plumbed to the core support in the video I posted earlier. All fittings are XRP.

When will the piston squirters be available?

I will ask.. I got the feeling it would be a month or two.. but not "long"

A good rule of thumb for oil pressure I have been told by a few people that really know what they are talking about is the following. On a babbitt bearing motor you should have 10 PSI for every 1000 RPM. That will keep it safe.

I can't believe that a 4.25 stroke works in a short deck, how long are the sleeves in the std deck block compared to the std gm ones?

Regardless, awesome build. I really wanted to take the route of the RHS block, still may..... I have a good top end (solid roller set up ET 4 inch bore heads) that I'd love to throw on a 450+ inch motor. Heads may not quite be enough for that many Ci, but I'm sure that Cary could work some magic on them if I sent them back.

Very cool, that sounds in line with my plans, to a degree. Is there a reason you chose 215*? Mines fully open at 185*

Do you find that a cooler that big is necessary? I was actually going to get a
Setrab, but i was thinking something more like 14x4, but im also not really going to be racing so much as driving it with peace of mind..

Also looks like XRP has a TON of stuff and even more info, but no pricing? I actually put off getting all my braided stuff from BAT inc this weekend, but maybe that was for the better.. Is there a reason why you go with them specifically? I need to plumb my cooler, pcv and fuel still, would be nice to have them prefab some lines :)

The reason Canton sets thier t-stat there is so that the oil will get hot enough to evap any moisture (ie water) that condenses into the oil. If you oil never gets over 200 (much less to the boiling point of water) then moisture will continue to build in your oil. Plus 220-230 isn't really all that hot for oil.

This cooler is most likely bigger than I need.. but I had the room and was tired of having high oil temp on extended road racing sessions. You don't need one nearly this big.

I went with XRP because they make good stuff that is better than most stuff out there. Mostly this is in the area of flow and how the inside of the fittings are designed. Now there are other good flowing fittings, but I've had good luck with XRP and some of the el-cheapo fittings really hurt flow and that's bad in the oil department.

Hold an XRP up next to another brand and you should be able to see the difference.

Got to www.xrp.com and open the catalog. Then look on the bottom of page 15 and you will see what I mean. :)

Yeah thats a pretty noticeable difference. This is turning out to be one of the more complicated parts of my build, just making sure all the little crap fits. Luckily it looks like theyre the 'call n talk' type so maybe I can get my questions answered there.

and @ the top of the page: How many ls 1st gen guys do you hang out with? hahaha

that is some pretty engine porn

what was your reasoning of going with the mast heads in this application? awesome ride btw

Wow nice pics of the parts can't wait to see it done

Very surprising 9.240" deck minus 6.125" rod minus 2.125" crank travel
equals a piston compression distance of 0.990"!! (zero in the hole):eek:

Great flow numbers.. nice specs and I wanted to give them a try.

We haven't measured the deck yet or seen where the piston falls in the hole.

But yea, it's all "on the edge" stuff.. guess we just better make sure we do it right.

Id like to see how these perform compared to the big bore ones PRC LS3 heads when they come out

Fixed that for you...

= lets hope the rings seal...:eek2:

I would have optioned for shorter rods myself. Good luck on the build. Those RHS blocks sure do look promising. Is there any information on the limits of these blocks where the bore size in concerned? I read they are sold as a 4.125 or a 4.165 bore block but it doesn't say anywhere what the MAX recommended bore size would be?

Actually we had to switch to an Autocraft pan for stroke clearance.. it has a full four-way trap door system.

And a big oil cooling system.. Moroso pump with the high pressure spring. Wish the oil squirters were on the market.

Max bore is 4.165.. so I'm told.

Lunati didn't offer a shorter rod, but Wiseco put a lot of thought into these pistons and the RHS sleeve design helps as well.


Ok.. so a few days of machine work at Nelson Racing followed by three days of building and I'm dynoing the 460 RHS engine tomorrow at Westech Performance.

Any guesses?

The 454 made 650 there and this one should make a bit more due to the better heads and a slight bump in compression (11.5:1)

http://i56.tinypic.com/2ppn5hh.jpg

A very detailed build, we flowed the Mast heads and then modded the valves to give more flow in the low to mid range area.. should be a torquie sucker.

http://i56.tinypic.com/4idijk.jpg

Tom (at Nelson Racing Engines) also port matched the FAST intake to the heads and cleaned it up a bit.. hey, every bit helps.

We didn't build this to make some crazy high "magazine number".. if so it would have been solid with a valvetrain capable of reving higher.. we want lots of low and midrange torque given how we use the car.

Should know tomorrow.

Oh so we're playing the guessing game now? I'm first,

about 680, possibly more depending on your cam.

Very nice build..... who makes the front cover on your motor. I know that the RHS block has a raised cam and needs to have the cam sensor relocated.

It's a GM front cover.. the rear cover is specific to the RHS block but the front cover doesn't care that the cam is raised. The cam sensor doesn't need to be moved since it's still in a position to read the sprocket even with the raised cam.

Drum roll....

Now I forgot my small camera at the dyno so no video yet. I also shot the run on the screen so you can see all the numbers as well as the vid in the dyno room. I will also have the list at various RPM along with all the BMEP numbers.

So.. the best pull was...

719.5 hp
662 tq

Corrected numbers, pump gas, 28 degrees of timing.

On this pull we lugged the dyno down low, it was a bit rich but we made over 400 lb-ft at 2.500.

Peak hp was at 6.200 and the engine easily pulled to 6,700 with no float. Pretty sure it could pull to 7,000.

Good BMEP numbers, which show the heads were really working well, especially in the middle range.

Also, this was a "hero" pull.. we were nailing down consistent 705/708 pulls and let the engine set for 5-10 minutes and then made this pull.

Should be enough.. lol
http://i52.tinypic.com/2l8izps.jpg

...you think? Torque monster! Got a few old tree stumps in my yard that could use a pull :D .

Impressive, congratulations.

Holy Shit!!! That is one BadAss Build!!! Off the subject, But, What kind of Rocker arms are those???

Thanks :)

LS7 GM rockers that were bushed by CHE.. Good stuff

and just think thats with a smaller cam than what could be used. Good numbers for sure

Did I miss something? Which cam was run? Snot or not?

I ran the Mary Ann cam.. not the Ginger cam.. lol

I really wanted good street manners so I went with the smaller durration cam with a higher LSA.

I can get the specs for that cam if ya want.

Yep cam specs please :)

Awesome results! Great build, those big cubes, Mast/PI heads, and FAST ls3 are delivering the goods. From the sounds of it, it is a real deal streetable/reliable setup. Enjoy it. What car is it destined for?

great results in a great car! I like the valve cover setup w/ the coils, where is that from?

Thats bloody awesome mate.

Video.. :)

[youtube]63BNiNjoGjI[/youtube]

Katech.


Hey Steve...cam specs? :secret2:

I hope you have better luck with Wiseco than I did, they couldnt handle building me a set of pistons to run with a 4.1 crank and 6.125 rod in an iron block 6.0. 300 miles in it was drinking a quart every 100 miles. Ill never use their pistons again, hopefully it wasnt Brian Nutter who helped you with the piston design...

Beautiful car, I hope to have something like that one day :D

Funny.. I've used Wiseco in the last three engines.. zero problems and we beat the crap out of those engines..

I suppose it's like any company.. there are happy people and ones not so happy.. :shrug:

Thanks for the compliment on the car.

As for cam specs.. I will get them soon.

Pretty sure the small cam is 247/263 114LSA .624 lift (installed at 110.5)

Will have to go look at the bigger cam we didn't run.

Not the first time or the last. Haven't bought a set since either.

Really? I guess i have heard nothing but good about Wiseco to be serious with ya. Maybe it was problems with the setup?? :confused:

Lets try to stay somewhat on topic.. really don't want this to become a Wiseco pissing match. :)

Amazing build. I'd love to see more pics

Looks like a comp LSR cam, was it?

I'd love to see pics when installed in the car. Can we expect those anytime soon?

What an impressive build, cant wait to see some pics of it installed in the car

Nice results Steve, enjoy the new power:cheers:

Wiseco did me a 4.070" bore piston in a 6.0 block with a 4.1 crank and 6.125 rods and I ran it for 2 years without issue. Proper cylinder hone and prep at the bottom of the cylinder bore where the piston rocks has been key for me, both of which Wiseco would have no control over.

If you want more details you can PM me and Ill fill you in on everything. It was NOT the engine builders fault.

How is this project going? Is the engine in the car yet?

im in love with that block how much are they going for?

would that block be able to handle fi with 460 ci
head gasket wise ?

The RHS with the best HG setup should be able to handle 2400-2800 with the other supporting mods

2400/2800 ??
sorrey is that 24 to 28 psi
what is the best HG set up

LOL sorry, The block should be able to handle 2400hp-2800hp with a good headgasket setup at 460". It will take 35+# of boost to make those kind of numbers.

so it would handle 10/15 psi boost ?

LOL, yeah.