Buy a used LS3?
06-07-2012, 08:02 PM
#21
I still say go big for an ls3 shortblock or any 6.2l variation. The larger bore is a huge plus, and if you get a stroker kit you can go up to 414ci i think.
Either way figure 500 for a bare block
2500 for a rotating assembly of your choice with bearings
Heads anywhere from $1000-4000 your choice
Cam/springs/blah blah blah $900
Gaskets, bolts, misc **** $500
So for a totally new, ground up build you can get anywhere from 5k-7k +
You would have the benefit of more CI, all new parts, forged pistons etc and you could have one bad *** motor with the quality parts to make it last a long time and make huge power to boot.
Either way figure 500 for a bare block
2500 for a rotating assembly of your choice with bearings
Heads anywhere from $1000-4000 your choice
Cam/springs/blah blah blah $900
Gaskets, bolts, misc **** $500
So for a totally new, ground up build you can get anywhere from 5k-7k +
You would have the benefit of more CI, all new parts, forged pistons etc and you could have one bad *** motor with the quality parts to make it last a long time and make huge power to boot.
06-08-2012, 07:45 AM
#22
I still say go big for an ls3 shortblock or any 6.2l variation. The larger bore is a huge plus, and if you get a stroker kit you can go up to 414ci i think.
Either way figure 500 for a bare block
2500 for a rotating assembly of your choice with bearings
Heads anywhere from $1000-4000 your choice
Cam/springs/blah blah blah $900
Gaskets, bolts, misc **** $500
So for a totally new, ground up build you can get anywhere from 5k-7k +
You would have the benefit of more CI, all new parts, forged pistons etc and you could have one bad *** motor with the quality parts to make it last a long time and make huge power to boot.
Either way figure 500 for a bare block
2500 for a rotating assembly of your choice with bearings
Heads anywhere from $1000-4000 your choice
Cam/springs/blah blah blah $900
Gaskets, bolts, misc **** $500
So for a totally new, ground up build you can get anywhere from 5k-7k +
You would have the benefit of more CI, all new parts, forged pistons etc and you could have one bad *** motor with the quality parts to make it last a long time and make huge power to boot.
I know you can go to a 416 with a 4.00 crank and 4.070 bore and a 418 with a 4.080 bore.
Your dollar figures are a little off but close. I just built a 416 with Callies internals and Wiseco pistons and the stock L92 heads cnc'd by PRC. I'm not done with it and I'm 9 grand in it.
For the OP I wouldn't even recommend a motor like that if he was going to boost it. A motor that size would require more than any kit out there and it would be more custom. The turbo size would be a 91mm minimum or an 88mm with a large exhaust housing to keep back pressure to a minimum.
OP you can throw a D1 or turbo kit (I'm partial to turbos) on you car now and slowly but surely build you a forged 370 with good internals and a set of good heads with a matching cam. 9's with ease all day.
06-08-2012, 08:45 AM
#23
I still say go big for an ls3 shortblock or any 6.2l variation. The larger bore is a huge plus, and if you get a stroker kit you can go up to 414ci i think.
Either way figure 500 for a bare block
2500 for a rotating assembly of your choice with bearings
Heads anywhere from $1000-4000 your choice
Cam/springs/blah blah blah $900
Gaskets, bolts, misc **** $500
So for a totally new, ground up build you can get anywhere from 5k-7k +
You would have the benefit of more CI, all new parts, forged pistons etc and you could have one bad *** motor with the quality parts to make it last a long time and make huge power to boot.
Either way figure 500 for a bare block
2500 for a rotating assembly of your choice with bearings
Heads anywhere from $1000-4000 your choice
Cam/springs/blah blah blah $900
Gaskets, bolts, misc **** $500
So for a totally new, ground up build you can get anywhere from 5k-7k +
You would have the benefit of more CI, all new parts, forged pistons etc and you could have one bad *** motor with the quality parts to make it last a long time and make huge power to boot.
I have to agree with Silverbullet, unless your getting a hooked up price I don't see you doing a turn key H/C build with all new shortblock and heads for anywhere near 5k. 7k is close but still a little low in my opinion. For reference My forged 347 was 5k and it was used with low miles.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all, if he's staying N/A I'd say LS3 or 416 for sure. I'm not a fan of the mega-long strokes. I just want the OP to have his budget in line. Make a list total it then double it. Got to think you didn't even list machining if he goes stroker and assembly. That another 1000-1500 there give or take.
06-08-2012, 09:18 AM
#25
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The ls3 can go to 427 but it is recommended more for N/A or just a small shot since it uses a 4.125 crank and pulls the piston way down in the bore to the end of the sleeve plus the piston is thin because of all the stroke.
I know you can go to a 416 with a 4.00 crank and 4.070 bore and a 418 with a 4.080 bore.
Your dollar figures are a little off but close. I just built a 416 with Callies internals and Wiseco pistons and the stock L92 heads cnc'd by PRC. I'm not done with it and I'm 9 grand in it.
For the OP I wouldn't even recommend a motor like that if he was going to boost it. A motor that size would require more than any kit out there and it would be more custom. The turbo size would be a 91mm minimum or an 88mm with a large exhaust housing to keep back pressure to a minimum.
OP you can throw a D1 or turbo kit (I'm partial to turbos) on you car now and slowly but surely build you a forged 370 with good internals and a set of good heads with a matching cam. 9's with ease all day.
I know you can go to a 416 with a 4.00 crank and 4.070 bore and a 418 with a 4.080 bore.
Your dollar figures are a little off but close. I just built a 416 with Callies internals and Wiseco pistons and the stock L92 heads cnc'd by PRC. I'm not done with it and I'm 9 grand in it.
For the OP I wouldn't even recommend a motor like that if he was going to boost it. A motor that size would require more than any kit out there and it would be more custom. The turbo size would be a 91mm minimum or an 88mm with a large exhaust housing to keep back pressure to a minimum.
OP you can throw a D1 or turbo kit (I'm partial to turbos) on you car now and slowly but surely build you a forged 370 with good internals and a set of good heads with a matching cam. 9's with ease all day.
LS3 block is going to run you more than 500 bucks. Think more along the lines of a grand.
I have to agree with Silverbullet, unless your getting a hooked up price I don't see you doing a turn key H/C build with all new shortblock and heads for anywhere near 5k. 7k is close but still a little low in my opinion. For reference My forged 347 was 5k and it was used with low miles.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all, if he's staying N/A I'd say LS3 or 416 for sure. I'm not a fan of the mega-long strokes. I just want the OP to have his budget in line. Make a list total it then double it. Got to think you didn't even list machining if he goes stroker and assembly. That another 1000-1500 there give or take.
I have to agree with Silverbullet, unless your getting a hooked up price I don't see you doing a turn key H/C build with all new shortblock and heads for anywhere near 5k. 7k is close but still a little low in my opinion. For reference My forged 347 was 5k and it was used with low miles.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all, if he's staying N/A I'd say LS3 or 416 for sure. I'm not a fan of the mega-long strokes. I just want the OP to have his budget in line. Make a list total it then double it. Got to think you didn't even list machining if he goes stroker and assembly. That another 1000-1500 there give or take.
A boosted forged iron block vs. boosted forged LS1
in rwhp terms,
I am just trying to see if is worth it to get the iron block in the long run.
I am not too crazy about the idea of the LS1 being maxed out around 700rwhp if this is the case. But I dont understand how it could be when people boost the hell out of 3.8s in grand nationals for example. Or so many more boost applications...
This is going to be a decision I will be pondering on for some time
06-08-2012, 10:26 AM
#28
ARP 2000 bolts and main studs, and even the head studs to me are worth the little extra.
Hell if you want to do it on the cheap cheap buy a junkyard 6.0liter longblock slap a blower on it with stock bottom end and stock heads with a D1 and moderate boost and you can play for a while. People put those stock LQ4's through alot sometimes. Then when it finally pops, bore it over and put forged rods and pistons in it.
There are SO many ways to go about anything. You need to decide if your going to go N/A or FI first.
06-08-2012, 10:49 AM
#30
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Man you know there are people that can tell you alot more about pistons and things of that nature than I can. But there are horsepower limits on the rotating assembly, however, most people over build their bottom ends IMO.
ARP 2000 bolts and main studs, and even the head studs to me are worth the little extra.
Hell if you want to do it on the cheap cheap buy a junkyard 6.0liter longblock slap a blower on it with stock bottom end and stock heads with a D1 and moderate boost and you can play for a while. People put those stock LQ4's through alot sometimes. Then when it finally pops, bore it over and put forged rods and pistons in it.
There are SO many ways to go about anything. You need to decide if your going to go N/A or FI first.
ARP 2000 bolts and main studs, and even the head studs to me are worth the little extra.
Hell if you want to do it on the cheap cheap buy a junkyard 6.0liter longblock slap a blower on it with stock bottom end and stock heads with a D1 and moderate boost and you can play for a while. People put those stock LQ4's through alot sometimes. Then when it finally pops, bore it over and put forged rods and pistons in it.
There are SO many ways to go about anything. You need to decide if your going to go N/A or FI first.
For example,
I know you can get a nitrous kit for under $500, Back in 2007 I installed a dry kit on my 94z28 and it costed around $1200 because I went all out. (Fuel pressure safety switch, digital rpm activation switch, bottle heater, electronic bottle opener, autometer c2 gauges, etc)
I am intending to build a seriously tough FI setup. Absolutely not N/A.
I appreciate all the feedback man, I dont know much about anything this serious. I am going to eventually have to go to a performance shop to get some blueprints of what I am all going to do and just want to get a basic knowledge of this so I am not going in there blind for the most part.
Thanks man, I unfortunately can not make a move like that until the end of this year.
06-08-2012, 11:51 AM
#32
Everything has its limitations. On stock motors with boost, its the rotating assembly. The rod bolts can take a good bit of abuse but they can let go too. The pistons are pretty stout but can also let go if the tune is not spot on and more on the conservative side.
Once you upgrade the internals and there are different levels of upgrade as far as crank, rods, and pistons go. There is the high end stuff like AES offers Callies dragonslayer cranks and their ultra rods and CP pistons. Then there is the stuff a little better than stock like a set of Scat rods and Mahle pistons on a stock crank.
Then once you start to make some real power you have to worry about the heads lifting because of the deck being thinner, but that's in 1000+ rwhp category. When you head that route you need to start looking into six-bolt blocks and heads. Just to give an example though 98z28cobrakiller on here has a 370 iron block with AFR 225 heads with an 88mm turbo and at a weight of 3800 lbs on 24 psi has ran as fast as 8.98@154 and thats with a 4 bolt per cylinder set-up. So don't count out any four bolt set-up.
06-08-2012, 12:15 PM
#33
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With a 74K mile engine, you might want to start on the outside first and then work your way in. Buy the D1 kit, change to 317 heads to lower CR and buy Brute Speed's blower cam. Will get you a huge increase in power over what you have now and for the most part be a bolt on exercise. When you eventually break #7 piston ring land, you can upgrade pistons and rods, port the heads, change pulley and be in the 700+ range.
What I don't see in your current set-up and hopefully in your budget is a few supporting parts needed for this level of power. Rear end, drive shaft, torque arm, clutch and possibly brakes and roll cage should be accounted for somewhere. Spare T56 might be a good idea too if you hammer it at the track with slicks.
What I don't see in your current set-up and hopefully in your budget is a few supporting parts needed for this level of power. Rear end, drive shaft, torque arm, clutch and possibly brakes and roll cage should be accounted for somewhere. Spare T56 might be a good idea too if you hammer it at the track with slicks.
06-08-2012, 02:17 PM
#34
^^^ Good points as well. M6 with boost will turn that 10-bolt into chum.
I was in the same boat as you, searching high and low for more power. POOOOWER (Clarkson voice)
Now, I can't even enjoy my car much because my rear end is howling and I have to limp everywhere.
I was in the same boat as you, searching high and low for more power. POOOOWER (Clarkson voice)
Now, I can't even enjoy my car much because my rear end is howling and I have to limp everywhere.
Last edited by My6speedZ; 06-08-2012 at 02:22 PM.
06-08-2012, 02:37 PM
#35
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^^^Good info here. Just lurk around in the FI section and read. You will pick up alot just reading what people post.
Everything has its limitations. On stock motors with boost, its the rotating assembly. The rod bolts can take a good bit of abuse but they can let go too. The pistons are pretty stout but can also let go if the tune is not spot on and more on the conservative side.
Once you upgrade the internals and there are different levels of upgrade as far as crank, rods, and pistons go. There is the high end stuff like AES offers Callies dragonslayer cranks and their ultra rods and CP pistons. Then there is the stuff a little better than stock like a set of Scat rods and Mahle pistons on a stock crank.
Then once you start to make some real power you have to worry about the heads lifting because of the deck being thinner, but that's in 1000+ rwhp category. When you head that route you need to start looking into six-bolt blocks and heads. Just to give an example though 98z28cobrakiller on here has a 370 iron block with AFR 225 heads with an 88mm turbo and at a weight of 3800 lbs on 24 psi has ran as fast as 8.98@154 and thats with a 4 bolt per cylinder set-up. So don't count out any four bolt set-up.
Everything has its limitations. On stock motors with boost, its the rotating assembly. The rod bolts can take a good bit of abuse but they can let go too. The pistons are pretty stout but can also let go if the tune is not spot on and more on the conservative side.
Once you upgrade the internals and there are different levels of upgrade as far as crank, rods, and pistons go. There is the high end stuff like AES offers Callies dragonslayer cranks and their ultra rods and CP pistons. Then there is the stuff a little better than stock like a set of Scat rods and Mahle pistons on a stock crank.
Then once you start to make some real power you have to worry about the heads lifting because of the deck being thinner, but that's in 1000+ rwhp category. When you head that route you need to start looking into six-bolt blocks and heads. Just to give an example though 98z28cobrakiller on here has a 370 iron block with AFR 225 heads with an 88mm turbo and at a weight of 3800 lbs on 24 psi has ran as fast as 8.98@154 and thats with a 4 bolt per cylinder set-up. So don't count out any four bolt set-up.
With a 74K mile engine, you might want to start on the outside first and then work your way in. Buy the D1 kit, change to 317 heads to lower CR and buy Brute Speed's blower cam. Will get you a huge increase in power over what you have now and for the most part be a bolt on exercise. When you eventually break #7 piston ring land, you can upgrade pistons and rods, port the heads, change pulley and be in the 700+ range.
What I don't see in your current set-up and hopefully in your budget is a few supporting parts needed for this level of power. Rear end, drive shaft, torque arm, clutch and possibly brakes and roll cage should be accounted for somewhere. Spare T56 might be a good idea too if you hammer it at the track with slicks.
What I don't see in your current set-up and hopefully in your budget is a few supporting parts needed for this level of power. Rear end, drive shaft, torque arm, clutch and possibly brakes and roll cage should be accounted for somewhere. Spare T56 might be a good idea too if you hammer it at the track with slicks.
I would get more satisfaction of the money spent when I start it up vs. (built t56, moser 9 inch/suspension) even if it doesnt move much sitting in my garage lol
06-12-2012, 08:41 AM
#36
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My .02. If u don't mind the down time.....use your current block. Rebuild with forged. Get new heads if u want, keep in mind if you use old heads and have to shave them it could cost roughly half the cost of a new head. Then apply the boost and run with it. I am currently setting up a forged 347 with a fmic d1sc for about 8 to 9 pounds. My goal is 500rwhp. I will post once I have been to the dyno. Fyi, I paid for a used set of 243s and then had to pay another $500 to have them milled flat. I would have rathered get a cncd head.
06-12-2012, 08:45 AM
#37
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Oh and don't be scared to just call one of the vendors here. I have talked to bob @ brutespeed quite a few times. Rpm is who actually built my engine for me, I know both of those guys can be very helpful.
06-12-2012, 08:52 AM
#38
My .02. If u don't mind the down time.....use your current block. Rebuild with forged. Get new heads if u want, keep in mind if you use old heads and have to shave them it could cost roughly half the cost of a new head. Then apply the boost and run with it. I am currently setting up a forged 347 with a fmic d1sc for about 8 to 9 pounds. My goal is 500rwhp. I will post once I have been to the dyno. Fyi, I paid for a used set of 243s and then had to pay another $500 to have them milled flat. I would have rathered get a cncd head.
Cartek, one of the top shops out there only charges 120 bucks to mill heads.
Read the thread, I already stated about using his old block and the OP has put that into consideration.
06-12-2012, 08:55 AM
#40
My .02. If u don't mind the down time.....use your current block. Rebuild with forged. Get new heads if u want, keep in mind if you use old heads and have to shave them it could cost roughly half the cost of a new head. Then apply the boost and run with it. I am currently setting up a forged 347 with a fmic d1sc for about 8 to 9 pounds. My goal is 500rwhp. I will post once I have been to the dyno. Fyi, I paid for a used set of 243s and then had to pay another $500 to have them milled flat. I would have rathered get a cncd head.
