Did you do a soft or hard break in on this new motor?

do you think the rings sealed good on the cylinder walls?

 

Tonight I tried like hell to get the snakey scope to bend around an intake runner to see the top of the valve. Almost but no dice - It would only go so far then get stuck as it entered the aluminum head.

It comes with a little clip on mirror to see 90 degrees but I'm not chancing dropping that down in there!

Anyway, getting late and Leak down tests tomorrow. Let ya know...thanks for all the help.

 

Hey Forteen3GT,

My mechanic friend broke it in for the first couple hundred....maybe more...I'll spare you the long tragic story of bent valves.

I can tell you when I got it I couldn't help but get on it. (he told me to baby it) Really Can't say what he did... and now we are out of touch.

I guess we are about to find out.
Ram

 

Guys:

They are 99% sure it's rings. Even though the top ring has good compression, (215 -220# across the board), they think it's the middle or bottom rings.

Floor of the intake is dry. My filter setup is working well.

He didn't see any oil on top of the intake valves. (looked down the injector holes with my scope. My scope is not the best to see through, so he is also trying a stick with some cotton on it, kind of like a giant Q tip. )

All 8 plugs are the same dark reddish brown. So he feels that tends point not to a few valve seals or studs with no teflon.

Everyone said that small chunk of bondo would not hurt anything, unless it bent a valve or pushrod. Anyway that would be one or 2 cylinders not all.

They would need about 2-3 hours to pull and replace the intake to be ABSOLUTELY SURE, and that's over a couple hundred bucks.

SO I wonder if I should just drive it home, and do it myself in my garage as I have to tear the thing down anyway? I'll have to rent an engine hoist and build a crate for the shortblock I guess.

On the good side, Matt at TTP said he would make it right whatever the outcome on the phone. TTP built the shortblock. Break-in soft or hard, he said was not really a big issue on his motors.

I'm headed over to Certified Performance right now with all your notes guys...will check back with you guys in a bit!
Thanks, Rambo

 

YEP, Guess what, there are puddles of oil on the top of the valves after all!
He got a better scope and light can really see down in the Injector holes now!

So, maybe I have 1999vetteroo's situation. This is somewhat encouraging - I'm still just hoping we don't have to deal with the rings too.

We will check the cylinders when the heads are off, a few hairline scratches have been seen in the scope, no real real scuffs yet. I guess we really won't be able to see if the rings really did seat or not though!

Very Rough ballpark pricing at Certified Performance:

About $1600 for freshening up the heads with new seals, guides, any machine work, labor R &R...WHITE_HAWK, you are right, They want to pull the motor just to get to the heads.

While the motor is out, they say it would be a shame to put it back together and oil is still blowing by the rings. (Again - it does blow some smoke out the oil cap now- is that normal for this kind of motor?)

So they would recommend pulling the motor and freshening both the block (rehoning and all) and the heads at the same time. Total Roughly $2700. all gaskets, all machine work, everything. (They say it's not a money issue to them. They make about the same either way, it's just more work for the machine shop.)

I don't have that kind of money.

Maybe I could tackle it slowly, in my garage, by myself, with the motor in the car. I have never messed with heads before. I know it is a PITA in the car. Then I would bring it to them to install and get the pushrod geometry perfect. (But They say I would only save about 300-400 max and they really prefer to remove and install themselves so they are absolutely sure about everything.

What do you guys think?

 

I'm not sure how hard it is to pull the valve springs on your car. But if you can takle it, I would do that my self and see where your at. If you end up pulling the motor, don't cut any corners. Save your money and do it right. You'll be better off in the long run. It cost me about $2300 to have my shortblock installed and I already had some of the gaskets. So your price is not that far off. Actually its pretty good. If that is your worst case you can relax a little bit. I'm sure this has been driving you crazy over the past few weeks....... It's almost over!

 

Waay too long. I can get my intake off in a little over 15 minutes

 

Cant believe nobodys picking up on the #8 cylinder first puff. Must not be too many professional diagnostic guys chimin in.
The first "puff" on a cranking compression test, is actually the most important one. Its the one closest to dynamic, or running compression. Here in our shop, in questionable engines like this one, we do cranking and running compression, and sometimes even dynamic, or running compression tests with a pressure transducer and o-scope. Talk about seein the light. You can actually "see" the valve events in an electronic "wave".
I would test the suspected cylinder several times to make sure it repeats. Then do a leakdown. Not to verify the rings, because alot of times it wont. But instead, to rule out valve/valve seat issues. Then, only thing left is rings.
I've seen many times, where an engine would smoke, have funky compression, and have minimal leakdown, due to the top ring sealing properly. Still doesnt account for the second ring, and its ability to seal or scrape.

 

edcmat-l1,
That was most likely my leaking extra snap connector and 90 degree fitting - must have been leaking and sealed up with the addition of oil. Because at Certified Performance the first puff was about 190 then 215-220 on second puff on ALL cylinders. That #8 business is due to my "-rigged" leaky fitting I'm pretty sure.

I would love to have your shop look at it, that really sounds great...but I'm in St. Louis.
Certified said same as you on the rings, it could be the second rings, even though great compression and leakdown testing indicated nothing wrong.

But all that oil on top of the valves - along with 1999vetteroo's experience, I'm certainly hoping that "most" of it is seals being worn from bad valve/ pushrod geometry.

But, that Still doesn't explain the smoke out the oil cap...which indicates rings...it's not that much, maybe I can shoot a mpeg of it and put it up for you to see tomorrow.

I would like to know if this much smoke is normal or not for this kind of engine from you guys.

Stevie Z, that's remove and replace. Anyway, now it's unnecessary, they were able to look down my scope through the injector holes to see the top of the intakes....

They charged me just 73 dollars (or one hour) for the compression/leakdown tests, replacing plugs, r&r injectors and scoping all the injector holes! Nice honest guys at Certified Performance, St. Louis.

1999vetteroo,
Thanks for the kind words. Well, I guess we would be wanting to replace guides and seals, so the heads have to come off right? I really like your story, did you pull the heads? You say you made sure the studs have teflon on them, I figureed you did.

I mean I would really love to save about 1000 bucks and just do the heads! It'a a gamble. Again, with the smoke coming out the oil cap, maybe it's both.

Did YOU have any smoke out the oil cap?

I thought it was awfully rich when it was breaking in (burn your eyes). Maybe those rings got washed out. I should look at my dyno run sheet to see what the A/F ratio was when he started the dyno tune.

Again, I'll try to get a movie of that smoke out the oil cap up for you guys to tell me what you think.

 

I still fear piston scuffing which scored the cyls, but I hope for your sake, I am wrong.

 

I did see a total of 5 hairline scratches in 2 cylinders so far with the scope

Back when it was being assembled, I felt some sand grit in the cylinders one day in the mechanic's garage. It was an unusually windy day and some sand blew up from under the cover. He said he would be sure to wipe it all out. He is very meticulous but - how can you be sure if some went between the cylinder and the piston.

I'll get pictures of the scratches - to see if you think they are serious.

Thanks!

 

Scuffing is more an issue of lubrication and hone finish. It is worse these days because of crank angles, fits and the lack of zinc and additives in oil.
402s are prone because of short sleeves and increased stroke which lets pistons rock. Most often if you get thru the first few thousand miles you are ok as the damage is done early. Oil additives during break in are very important.
If you saw vertical scratches that is not a good sign.

 

I had no smoke from my oil cap, just out the exhaust on startup... It does sound like you have more than one problem.... I had my valve seals replaced when they moved my heads over to my new shortblock. Could have done it my but, I just let the shop do it.

 

Yes, indeed - agreed. We used Rotella 20-50 wt. first 500 miles then we Mobil 1 15-50. Maybe we should have continued with Rotella for another thousand miles but heard it can kill O2 sensors with sulpher.

The vertical scratches are razor thin hairlines and only a few seen so far. I guess it could be scuffing ...or a few grains of sand that were not cleaned out before the first heads install. I'll take a photo when the heads come off!

STRANGE! No more smoke out the cap last night after 30 minutes of somewhat spirited driving .... But I am easier on it, because with the oil mist in the cylinders, I hear sounds like detonation (AutoXRay stopped working so I can't say for sure) and I just don't want to hurt it any more than it is.

I had really let 'er eat on it that day when I noticed it was smoking out the cap at idle, would that be normal?

(Quote: 1999vetteroo: I had no smoke from my oil cap, just out the exhaust on startup... It does sound like you have more than one problem.... I had my valve seals replaced when they moved my heads over to my new shortblock. Could have done it myself but, I just let the shop do it. )

OK, I see... so you did not actually rule out rings on your's. (an now I don't see the same smoke) Hmmm....

OK GUYS:

JPEGS

http://www.cepiallc.com/ram/BrokenSp...ston%20002.jpg

http://www.cepiallc.com/ram/CatchCan...CompFilter.JPG

http://www.cepiallc.com/ram/Dyon_Wet-AF2000miles.jpg

http://www.cepiallc.com/ram/ramboscamarodyno2.jpg


VIDEOS

http://www.cepiallc.com/ram/listen2.WMV

http://www.cepiallc.com/ram/Listentrashyvalvetrain.WMV

http://www.cepiallc.com/ram/What_NomoreSmoke.WMV


1. Please turn up your equalizer "Treble" and turn off the "Bass" to better hear my "Trashy sounding" valvetrain! T&D rockers- Morel lifters - 921 springs - Comp XLR cam with .615 lift... Sounds metallic and clattery. Is that Normal?

Another indicator that Pushrod length /valvetrain geometry is bad? (causing worn- leaky seals?) Remember the Oil on top of the intake valves.

2. Look at the ding where a valve kissed a piston, Sorry, Forgot to mention before. (Mechanid sanded off the rough edges) (Happened twice due to collapsed lifters due to wrong "solid roller" type springs installed.)

Not sure if this is a contributor to any of my problems. Heads have been rebuilt by Comp Cams since the two seperate broken spring events.

3. See my "Catch Can" setup...only from the valley to the TB so far. (Intake is dry now after installing this Compressor filter inline) I still need to equalize the v/c's. Could that possibly help?

4. Dyno sheet shows A/F ratio somewhere below 10-1 before the tune...(See DYNO RUN 1, Violet line). Initial tune was in there for 2,000 miles...I'm wondering how wet does it have to be to cause ring washout?

5. NOW there is no smoke from the oil filler neck! Movie...

ALL thoughts appriciated and thanks again!

THE BIG QUESTION is REDO the Heads? (1600) Or REDO THE HEADS AND THE SHORTBLOCK? (2,500)

Guess I'll Start saving 2500 bucks now...!

Sorry - so many questions! THANKS AGAIN!
Rambo

 

Rambo: Very interesting to see this.

Your tune is too rich in some spots and too lean on that last dyno run that seems to be the final tune. The mid-range numbers are too rich, usually in the torque curve these motors like 12.5-12.8 (depends on car) not in the 11's.. I would never use more than 12.9-13.1 (Seems like 13.5+ on yours) on the dyno because that will hurt the motor.

I haven't heard from you since you reported to me that my motor was no good. Then you told Bill that you ruled out the heads as the problem.

In the videos why are you free revving the motor with the "low oil" light on??

Let me know if there is any way I can help you out on those heads...

- Matt

 

1000 mile break in. UUgghhh I hope you can get some ring seal outa that motor.

As a general rule of thumb you should be able to get 80% of your total compression on the 2nd stroke. If not most likely you have either a tappered bore or a ring issue. MY advice is to tear the engine down rehone it put a new set of rings in it and then promtply procede to beat the ever living hell out of it.

5 minutes of run in to change oil then pound the crap out of it. I bet it will stop smoking.

Oil smoke at WOT is indicative of a ring fialure.

Having read other replys in this thread. T&D shaft mount systems are totally unessacary items on hydrualic lifter motors sub 670 lift. Waste of money. the stock rockers are plenty fine. In fact thats whats in the ASA motors.

Of course you could screw up the valvetrain gemotery with a T&D and beat the guides right out of the heads. Trust me I have seen it a plenty.

Oil in the port could be comming out of the cylinder when the intake just cracks open and puffs a we bit of stuf back into the intake manifold. Also most head porters go right after the intake rocker bolt bolge in the port. you must always silcone seal those intake rockers bolts with ported heads.

Rulling all of that out I would definately not be surprised if you did not have a ring issue.

 

Hey Matt,
I don't think I said your motor was no good. Still trying to figure it all out. Left a message that it was looking that way and maybe getting the engine back to you. (At that time we had not yet seen oil on top of the valves) And whether delivering the whole car to you would be an option.

I know you would make it right if we believed something might be wrong with the shortblock that my people here didn't cause. Thanks for the offer to help on the heads too. I PM'd you and will call you next week.

On the last dyno run the operator emailed me, " My dynojet wide band oxygen sensor blew out of the exhaust during the best pull so A/F looks goofy."

On the earlier runs, looks like the A/F is good but then it climbs around 5,700 from 13.1 to to 13.5 at 6,000 rpm. Yeah we better watch out next time we dyno!

I did seem to be getting some audible knock (Oil mist+A/F high?) on the roa but it might have been that trashy sounding valvetrain at high revs. (My diagnostic tool is broken) I'm not driving it now anyway.

Key Question: Did the rings get washed with that 10.0 A/F ratio during break-in? Or is that amount of a rich tune OK for a couple thousand miles?

Oh, oil pressure is good, 40 psi @idle warm. Oil light was due to a broken oil level sensor. I replaced it with a new one but light is STILL on, maybe the wires are f'd up.

Talk to you soon -thank you and I really need help and advice!

Ram
---------------------------------
LS1curious:
Thanks for coming in!

They say I do have 80% on actually even the first stroke... already around 190 then second or third is 215# in all cylinders

I hear you on the rest.

Everyone says those 850 buck T&Ds were overkill. That and 500 buck Morel lifters. Lots of guys running stock rocker arms and making 800+ hp. I guess I had overzealous advice. The reasoning I was given was b/c of the accellerated ramp from the XLR cam and .615 lift. Although, finally, after 2 events of broken valve springs / collapsed LS6 lifters they realized they had put the wrong springs (240# solid roller type springs!). Now I have correct 921 springs.

Wish I still had that $1350 to go towards fixing this mess!....(Just trying to keep my chin up here!)

Intake bolt...Before we put those beautiful RHS heads on I saw a hole inside the head intake runner and I pointed it out....was laughed off and told that sealant is ALWAYS put on the bolts/studs. I guess we will find out if it was really, pretty soon.

THE BIG QUESTION remains:

REDO the Heads? ($1600- local Certified Performance)

Or

REDO THE HEADS AND THE SHORTBLOCK? ($2,500 - same shop)

Hey, IS THERE ANY WAY to tell if your rings are not seated? Pressurize the crankcase or something and listen to each cylinder? Just a crazy thought...

Thanks guys...

 

Update:

Took the SS out last night with Mike Mester and EFI Live on his laptop and we did some WOT 3rd and 4th gear runs ...no knock retard!

...Well -1 degree for a very short instance with AC on, going up a hill- (Although I think the AC cuts out at WOT)

The weather was cooler (75 degrees) but it was 85 percent humidity.

The "detonation noise" was clearly heard by both of us even while showing zero KR several times, so it's a relief that it's not.

BIG relief....I think the shortblock is just fine but I will try to spend the extra 1000 to be extra sure, once and for all.

I would like to send the whole car somewhere, get the heads and shortblock redone with the valvetrain set up perfectly and dyno tune. Turnkey. If I can afford it. Sponsers PM Me?

Here are the logs if any of you technical guys want to check them out...tune is still rich. One side of injectors seem to be tuned slightly differently.

Here is the link to the efilive log file.

http://www.fast-ta.com/rambo/962007.efi

if you want to view it you can download efilive from

http://www.efilive.com

Thanks, Ram

 

It seems that the dyno graph, even in the torque side, is pretty rich. But thats besides the point.

If you ran the motor at a 10.0 a/r for a few thousand miles there is a great chance that you washed down the rings. Which in turn willl scuff the cylinder walls and will allow oil to be deposited in the grooves and will be picked up by the top ring when it goes past and then will burn in the combustion chamber therefore oil consumption.

- Matt

 

OK Matt, "You fix what other shops break"

I will give you a call now. Thanks.
Rambo