Rebuilt Engine Break in
07-31-2009, 07:01 PM
#21
TECH Regular
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I personally run it for 20 mins or so drain oil (check for leaks). Drive it "in town" putting varying amounts of load, like downshifting etc. (stop and go) 50 miles change oil, 250, and 500. After the 200 mile mark I tend to beat on it alil.
07-31-2009, 07:52 PM
#22
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lawn Guyland
Posts: 675
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow, interesting thread. I wouldn't have thought this to be such a contested topic.
In defense of both sides, I know that a lot of time and special care can be spent assembling an engine, or not. For racing, longevity/durability you can go to great lenghts when picking parts, balancing and tolerencing etc... I believe engines of this caliber require a minimal break-in. I would guess your not gonna find many metal filings in the oil of this type of engine and it was built to take what some would call abuse.
That being said, I don't believe the goal is to try to break it on the first dyno pull!
The mass produced factory engines I have broken in have been brought up slowly to full out pulls by 600 miles. Some modern motors assebled under stricter circustances like the new vettes may require less time.
In defense of both sides, I know that a lot of time and special care can be spent assembling an engine, or not. For racing, longevity/durability you can go to great lenghts when picking parts, balancing and tolerencing etc... I believe engines of this caliber require a minimal break-in. I would guess your not gonna find many metal filings in the oil of this type of engine and it was built to take what some would call abuse.
That being said, I don't believe the goal is to try to break it on the first dyno pull!
The mass produced factory engines I have broken in have been brought up slowly to full out pulls by 600 miles. Some modern motors assebled under stricter circustances like the new vettes may require less time.
Last edited by DriftR; 07-31-2009 at 09:26 PM.
07-31-2009, 08:39 PM
#23
11 Second Club
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No disrespect intended, but what's your engine warranty?
I fully realize that you racing engine builders march to a different drummer. That's because you're building to and for a different standard than Joe Lunchbucket does in his garage, nor are you necessarily expecting that it will go for 100k miles before it comes back. One of the commonalities I've seen since I've been posting here is there are lots of kids (apologies to all...my 53 year old perspective), which means limited incomes. They only get to do it once since the deep pockets aren't there yet.
I fully realize that you racing engine builders march to a different drummer. That's because you're building to and for a different standard than Joe Lunchbucket does in his garage, nor are you necessarily expecting that it will go for 100k miles before it comes back. One of the commonalities I've seen since I've been posting here is there are lots of kids (apologies to all...my 53 year old perspective), which means limited incomes. They only get to do it once since the deep pockets aren't there yet.
07-31-2009, 10:10 PM
#25
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Greenville,SC
Posts: 817
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No disrespect intended, but what's your engine warranty?
I fully realize that you racing engine builders march to a different drummer. That's because you're building to and for a different standard than Joe Lunchbucket does in his garage, nor are you necessarily expecting that it will go for 100k miles before it comes back. One of the commonalities I've seen since I've been posting here is there are lots of kids (apologies to all...my 53 year old perspective), which means limited incomes. They only get to do it once since the deep pockets aren't there yet.
I fully realize that you racing engine builders march to a different drummer. That's because you're building to and for a different standard than Joe Lunchbucket does in his garage, nor are you necessarily expecting that it will go for 100k miles before it comes back. One of the commonalities I've seen since I've been posting here is there are lots of kids (apologies to all...my 53 year old perspective), which means limited incomes. They only get to do it once since the deep pockets aren't there yet.
07-31-2009, 10:52 PM
#28
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Stanwood, WA
Posts: 546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After a couple heat cycles to check for leaks and letting the bearings wear in a little you need to load the engine to seat the rings. I have torn down probably a dozen new engines that were oil burners that never had the rings seated.
Loading the engine doesn't mean running 6000 RPMs down the road. In a manual car it's easy, you just make 3 or 4 pulls in 4th gear from 2000 or so RPMs to 5000 or so. A dyno that provides a load is ideal but hard to find.
The first few hundred miles you should avoid cruising at a constant RPM for long periods and a lot of high RPMs, but don't baby it too much.
I have built diesels, 2 strokes and many 4 strokes and they all about the same. If you baby them too much on break-in you will not make as much power and probably end up with an oil burner.
Loading the engine doesn't mean running 6000 RPMs down the road. In a manual car it's easy, you just make 3 or 4 pulls in 4th gear from 2000 or so RPMs to 5000 or so. A dyno that provides a load is ideal but hard to find.
The first few hundred miles you should avoid cruising at a constant RPM for long periods and a lot of high RPMs, but don't baby it too much.
I have built diesels, 2 strokes and many 4 strokes and they all about the same. If you baby them too much on break-in you will not make as much power and probably end up with an oil burner.
07-31-2009, 10:56 PM
#29
There is not a motor we do that doesn;t see the dyno and max RPM with 20 miles.
-first start we heat cycle, change oil and filter
-take for a short drive and verify the car seems well and check for leaks ( 2nd heat cycle )
We then move to the dyno for another round of heat cycling and different loads to seat the rings. ( 3rd heat cycle )
good cool down
We then start tuning and see max rpm...motors vary from NA 400+ to FI 1000+ rwhp motors.
The car is then checked over again and another oil/filter change is done.
no synthetics
We then recommend oil/filter changes every 500-1000 miles until 3K miles. I change mine every couple times to the track, but that's just me.
-first start we heat cycle, change oil and filter
-take for a short drive and verify the car seems well and check for leaks ( 2nd heat cycle )
We then move to the dyno for another round of heat cycling and different loads to seat the rings. ( 3rd heat cycle )
good cool down
We then start tuning and see max rpm...motors vary from NA 400+ to FI 1000+ rwhp motors.
The car is then checked over again and another oil/filter change is done.
no synthetics
We then recommend oil/filter changes every 500-1000 miles until 3K miles. I change mine every couple times to the track, but that's just me.
without going WOT within a certain mile range you risk the rings never properly seating
most people I know have gone WOT under the first 100 miles, if its gonna break it's gonna do it then. these are HR cars that don't require excessive breakin procedures.
seen plenty of tests done mostly with motorcycle guys and the guys who went WOT much sooner or broke the motor in on the dyno or track always made more power than the guys who waited too long.
I know this is how I broke my motor in.
07-31-2009, 11:11 PM
#30
has a lot more to do with the types of components used, tight restriction racing parts are high power with little room for error and power loss, limited also very much in quality of metals used as well, valvetrain setups, etc. 500 miles of constant WOT is gonna be hell on any motor no matter how you break it in.
the motors aren't trashed after a race but people in their position can't afford to lose a couple hp here or there after a motor begins to get a little loosened up.
the motors aren't trashed after a race but people in their position can't afford to lose a couple hp here or there after a motor begins to get a little loosened up.
07-31-2009, 11:31 PM
#31
TECH Addict
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 2,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Synthetics will keep the rings from seating, and will inhibit wear pattern establishment on other parts. It's fine to use after initial break in. In fact, I'd recommend it.
Oil additives are pure and simple...snake oil. Most do nothing but dilute the additive package already present in good motor oil. Some of them will actually cause damage because of what they contain. You will not find a responsible tribologist out there that recommends them. You will not find an oil manufacturer that recommends them. I had one analyzed by a lab that actually contained chlorine...instant death to a bearing in the presence of any moisture. But, due to the incredible shear strength of chlorine, you can make a Briggs and Stratton run forever with no oil in the crankcase. Thats why bleach feels slippery. Another contained nothing but a really cheap grade of motor oil.
The ones with PTFE (teflon), well...teflon is a particulate. What do oil filters remove, down to about 20 microns? Smaller than that, and it'll never touch your bearings because it's smaller than the oil film covering them.
They only serve to separate a fool from his money. Same with things like Water Wetter.
Put your money where it'll actually do something.
Oil additives are pure and simple...snake oil. Most do nothing but dilute the additive package already present in good motor oil. Some of them will actually cause damage because of what they contain. You will not find a responsible tribologist out there that recommends them. You will not find an oil manufacturer that recommends them. I had one analyzed by a lab that actually contained chlorine...instant death to a bearing in the presence of any moisture. But, due to the incredible shear strength of chlorine, you can make a Briggs and Stratton run forever with no oil in the crankcase. Thats why bleach feels slippery. Another contained nothing but a really cheap grade of motor oil.
The ones with PTFE (teflon), well...teflon is a particulate. What do oil filters remove, down to about 20 microns? Smaller than that, and it'll never touch your bearings because it's smaller than the oil film covering them.
They only serve to separate a fool from his money. Same with things like Water Wetter.
Put your money where it'll actually do something.
07-31-2009, 11:35 PM
#32
TECH Addict
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 2,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
07-31-2009, 11:54 PM
#33
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (14)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it seems like the people that are saying that there is no need for a break-in period are the people building higher horsepower engines that have high end parts; meaning better quality metals that are stronger and can take an abuse. Yet the people that say they need a break-in period are the ones building stock or near stock engines that have older parts and not "top of the line" components. My thoughts are that the weaker metals and other associated parts need to be treated properly so there is no premature wear.
Also the concern of being TOO nice to an engine i am not arguing, i actually agree, but most likely there are alot of people that cant resist the urge and give it a hard pull here and there.
Also the concern of being TOO nice to an engine i am not arguing, i actually agree, but most likely there are alot of people that cant resist the urge and give it a hard pull here and there.
07-31-2009, 11:54 PM
#34
TECH Addict
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 2,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The folks you refer to also have cubic money thanks to their sponsors. You wanna see expensive racing...look at F-1. Drag racing isn't in the same league, even at the Top Fuel level.
08-01-2009, 12:05 AM
#35
TECH Addict
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 2,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it seems like the people that are saying that there is no need for a break-in period are the people building higher horsepower engines that have high end parts; meaning better quality metals that are stronger and can take an abuse. Yet the people that say they need a break-in period are the ones building stock or near stock engines that have older parts and not "top of the line" components. My thoughts are that the weaker metals and other associated parts need to be treated properly so there is no premature wear.
Also the concern of being TOO nice to an engine i am not arguing, i actually agree, but most likely there are alot of people that cant resist the urge and give it a hard pull here and there.
Also the concern of being TOO nice to an engine i am not arguing, i actually agree, but most likely there are alot of people that cant resist the urge and give it a hard pull here and there.
I'm perfectly satisfied with my car running 12's year after year on the same build. You may not be, and dropping another $10k after the second year may not be a big deal. To me, it would put me in a mini-van. Not going to go there.
08-01-2009, 01:01 AM
#36
TECH Apprentice
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can't make a weak part stronger or make shitty assembly better by taking it easy for the first few 100 miles. All you're doing is postponing the inevitable. If it's going to come apart then it's going to come apart, period. You think by driving it easy for 500, 1000 or even 10,000 miles that a weak point is going to get "stronger"? Like the rotating assembly will become seasoned, lol! C'mon, people.
Every engine I've ever put together has been started, allowed to idle for a little bit to check for leaks and such, driven around the block once or twice to see if it's running alright and then HAMMERED! Every speed shop/engine builder I've ever dealt with has done it the same way. Put it together, get it up to operating temps and then make 3 or so W.O.T. pulls on the engine dyno to seat the rings. By the the third pull the engine has usually made the most power it's going to make and it's ready to be delivered to the customer. Sometimes if they have trouble getting the rings to seat properly they'll spray it with a little nitrous to increase cylinder pressure.
The bottom line is you can't correct inferior parts or poor workmanship by driving it easy and "breaking it in".
Every engine I've ever put together has been started, allowed to idle for a little bit to check for leaks and such, driven around the block once or twice to see if it's running alright and then HAMMERED! Every speed shop/engine builder I've ever dealt with has done it the same way. Put it together, get it up to operating temps and then make 3 or so W.O.T. pulls on the engine dyno to seat the rings. By the the third pull the engine has usually made the most power it's going to make and it's ready to be delivered to the customer. Sometimes if they have trouble getting the rings to seat properly they'll spray it with a little nitrous to increase cylinder pressure.
The bottom line is you can't correct inferior parts or poor workmanship by driving it easy and "breaking it in".
08-01-2009, 01:23 AM
#37
im with the guy above! i started mine up, adjusted rockers, cool down, drove around the block, cool down, followed by 3rd gear pulls on the freeway from 3000-5500 rpm. i considered my break in done after 20 miles. didnt have glittery oil, ive got 30 psi at hot idle, 60 at 2000 rpm so id say my motors ready for a long hard life.
08-01-2009, 03:21 AM
#38
Launching!
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Smyrna,TN
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I cant say much because i have no experience. I would want my engine to last 100k+ miles so i would say take it easy for a few start ups and a few miles, then get on it a couple times to seat the rings. then perhaps take it easy for X amount of miles, then open her up for drag racing and high rpms.
08-01-2009, 07:36 AM
#39
it seems like the people that are saying that there is no need for a break-in period are the people building higher horsepower engines that have high end parts; meaning better quality metals that are stronger and can take an abuse. Yet the people that say they need a break-in period are the ones building stock or near stock engines that have older parts and not "top of the line" components. My thoughts are that the weaker metals and other associated parts need to be treated properly so there is no premature wear.
You can't make a weak part stronger or make shitty assembly better by taking it easy for the first few 100 miles. All you're doing is postponing the inevitable. If it's going to come apart then it's going to come apart, period. You think by driving it easy for 500, 1000 or even 10,000 miles that a weak point is going to get "stronger"? Like the rotating assembly will become seasoned, lol! C'mon, people.
Every engine I've ever put together has been started, allowed to idle for a little bit to check for leaks and such, driven around the block once or twice to see if it's running alright and then HAMMERED! Every speed shop/engine builder I've ever dealt with has done it the same way. Put it together, get it up to operating temps and then make 3 or so W.O.T. pulls on the engine dyno to seat the rings. By the the third pull the engine has usually made the most power it's going to make and it's ready to be delivered to the customer. Sometimes if they have trouble getting the rings to seat properly they'll spray it with a little nitrous to increase cylinder pressure.
The bottom line is you can't correct inferior parts or poor workmanship by driving it easy and "breaking it in".
Every engine I've ever put together has been started, allowed to idle for a little bit to check for leaks and such, driven around the block once or twice to see if it's running alright and then HAMMERED! Every speed shop/engine builder I've ever dealt with has done it the same way. Put it together, get it up to operating temps and then make 3 or so W.O.T. pulls on the engine dyno to seat the rings. By the the third pull the engine has usually made the most power it's going to make and it's ready to be delivered to the customer. Sometimes if they have trouble getting the rings to seat properly they'll spray it with a little nitrous to increase cylinder pressure.
The bottom line is you can't correct inferior parts or poor workmanship by driving it easy and "breaking it in".
Last edited by myltwon; 08-01-2009 at 07:42 AM.
08-01-2009, 08:58 AM
#40
I cant say much because i have no experience. I would want my engine to last 100k+ miles so i would say take it easy for a few start ups and a few miles, then get on it a couple times to seat the rings. then perhaps take it easy for X amount of miles, then open her up for drag racing and high rpms.
Last edited by Wicked94Z; 08-01-2009 at 09:04 AM.