i just got a state ref ticket help!!
03-30-2017, 02:59 PM
#41
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look up the violation code you got the ticket for. Was it because it is to loud?
A smog shop doesn't care about the sound a car makes, just if it passes tail pipe and visual inspection and the PCM shows all IM monitors ready (now you can only have 1 show not ready in Calif)
Visual inspection would include seeing if CATS are there. If you have headers you would need a CARB sticker for them. If you have aftermarket CATS they would need a CARD sticker AND a OBD 2 compliant if for 96 and newer. Magna Flow makes a CARB/OBD2 CAT....$250
OP, see if there is any model # or CARB # (EO#) on the mufflers. Look up that part to see if it is compliant for use in Calif. If so you take your smog test results and that info on the muffler to traffic court and the judge will throw the case out.
Cops can be real ******. He may have pulled you over for some completely unrelated issue only to find there was no issue but wanted to make his ticket quota and or is just a ahole
A smog shop doesn't care about the sound a car makes, just if it passes tail pipe and visual inspection and the PCM shows all IM monitors ready (now you can only have 1 show not ready in Calif)
Visual inspection would include seeing if CATS are there. If you have headers you would need a CARB sticker for them. If you have aftermarket CATS they would need a CARD sticker AND a OBD 2 compliant if for 96 and newer. Magna Flow makes a CARB/OBD2 CAT....$250
OP, see if there is any model # or CARB # (EO#) on the mufflers. Look up that part to see if it is compliant for use in Calif. If so you take your smog test results and that info on the muffler to traffic court and the judge will throw the case out.
Cops can be real ******. He may have pulled you over for some completely unrelated issue only to find there was no issue but wanted to make his ticket quota and or is just a ahole
03-31-2017, 02:53 AM
#42
TECH Addict
If you get pulled over by law enforcement they can "inspect" the car for vehicle violations in Calif.
if, for example, you have removed the CATS they can impound the car and write you a ticket. Not only is it a "fix it" ticket....you still have to pay the violation fine. Not like it was back in 70's-80's when a "fix it" ticket just meant you had to fix it and go get it inspected by Hwy. Patrol to sign off on the fix.
Not saying I agree with all this horseshit, just the way it is. Abuse of a badge and a gun over citizens is not exclusive to California.
if, for example, you have removed the CATS they can impound the car and write you a ticket. Not only is it a "fix it" ticket....you still have to pay the violation fine. Not like it was back in 70's-80's when a "fix it" ticket just meant you had to fix it and go get it inspected by Hwy. Patrol to sign off on the fix.
Not saying I agree with all this horseshit, just the way it is. Abuse of a badge and a gun over citizens is not exclusive to California.
There are many cases where the federal government overreaches in their limitations (after all isn't that what the Constitution is?); like Marijuana, Taxes, the Federal Reserve, etc. But, in this case it's the State violating the Federal limitations that guarantee the peoples rights. Limitations that the State agreed to upon joining the Union.
Things are far worse in California than many other States in that regard. Hawaii is horrible for anything Automotive. Want aftermarket wheels? Gotta get permission from the State! Want to lower your car? Need permission. Want tint? Permission. Body kit, spoilers, lift kits, exhaust, etc., etc., etc,. It's Crazy. I was born and raised there, won't live there either.
Here in Arizona, I have no issues with my car. I've been pulled over in it (for other reasons), and not a single officer cared how loud my exhaust was. A few would even shoot the **** with me and talk about cars seeing as how mine is obviously modified. I've mostly been pulled over for speeding (not racing or anything stupid) and they usually let me off with a warning or knock the ticket down to 0 points and $15 fine. A fix it ticket is just that. Fix it, that's it. You don't even have to prove you fixed it. It's used only to inform people that something on their car is wrong, nothing more.
Sorry, none of this is directed towards anyone in particular. But with our Government over reaching and seemingly no one want's to tell them no, it's things like this that just spark my frustration with all of it. If more people knew their rights against the Government, about everything, the less the Government can continue to over reach. Hell, it may even real them in!
03-31-2017, 10:19 AM
#43
TECH Regular
All they need to pull you over is probable cause. They do not need a warrant to search/inspect the emissions gear once they have pulled the car over. The 4th amendment goes out the window once probable cause is introduced and the police - not you - are the ones that decide what is and isn't probable cause.
In CA, a loud car is more than enough to flag the vehicle in the eyes of the police for an inspection. Why? Chances are, a vehicle with modified exhaust is violating noise laws. Once you've been pulled over, its game on - and they don't need a warrant because the source for the initial contact was mechanical in nature. This clears them to visually inspect the rest of the car for mechanical violations.
In FL, and other states, they can pull you over for dark tint, or even having the radio up too loud. Its doesn't take a huge mental leap to see how a modded car in CA could be pulled over every 50' in a state as restrictive as CA.
In CA, a loud car is more than enough to flag the vehicle in the eyes of the police for an inspection. Why? Chances are, a vehicle with modified exhaust is violating noise laws. Once you've been pulled over, its game on - and they don't need a warrant because the source for the initial contact was mechanical in nature. This clears them to visually inspect the rest of the car for mechanical violations.
In FL, and other states, they can pull you over for dark tint, or even having the radio up too loud. Its doesn't take a huge mental leap to see how a modded car in CA could be pulled over every 50' in a state as restrictive as CA.
03-31-2017, 10:57 AM
#44
TECH Addict
All they need to pull you over is probable cause. They do not need a warrant to search/inspect the emissions gear once they have pulled the car over. The 4th amendment goes out the window once probable cause is introduced and the police - not you - are the ones that decide what is and isn't probable cause.
In CA, a loud car is more than enough to flag the vehicle in the eyes of the police for an inspection. Why? Chances are, a vehicle with modified exhaust is violating noise laws. Once you've been pulled over, its game on - and they don't need a warrant because the source for the initial contact was mechanical in nature. This clears them to visually inspect the rest of the car for mechanical violations.
In FL, and other states, they can pull you over for dark tint, or even having the radio up too loud. Its doesn't take a huge mental leap to see how a modded car in CA could be pulled over every 50' in a state as restrictive as CA.
In CA, a loud car is more than enough to flag the vehicle in the eyes of the police for an inspection. Why? Chances are, a vehicle with modified exhaust is violating noise laws. Once you've been pulled over, its game on - and they don't need a warrant because the source for the initial contact was mechanical in nature. This clears them to visually inspect the rest of the car for mechanical violations.
In FL, and other states, they can pull you over for dark tint, or even having the radio up too loud. Its doesn't take a huge mental leap to see how a modded car in CA could be pulled over every 50' in a state as restrictive as CA.
The 4th amendment states that a warrant is required for reasonable search and seizure. And that the warrant must have probably cause to be issued.
Probable cause isn't an automatic allowance for officers to randomly search your things. And it's not for the officer to decide. It's for a judge to decide, it says that clearly in the 4th ammendment.
A loud car is no more a probable cause to emissions violations than driving from Sierra Vista to Tucson makes you a drug smuggler.
03-31-2017, 03:47 PM
#47
TECH Regular
From the link:
Not every police search must be made under a lawfully executed warrant. The Supreme Court has ruled that warrantless police conduct may comply with the Fourth Amendment, so long as it's reasonable under the circumstances.
So, when can police search your car? Generally, under the following circumstances:
You have given the officer consent;
The officer has probable cause to believe there is evidence of a crime in your vehicle;
The officer reasonably believes a search is necessary for their own protection (a hidden weapon, for example); and
You have been arrested and the search is related to that arrest (such as a search for illegal drugs).
Last edited by atlantadan; 03-31-2017 at 04:53 PM.
03-31-2017, 04:37 PM
#48
TECH Addict
Cars fall under motor vehicle code, its not a "search" its an inspection which for EPA/Safety/Fire/Federal Compliance does not require a warrant, in most cases your supposed to get some notice but anyone whose seen someone **** off a building inspector should know how well its going to go if you try and take them to court..
How many have been through a SOX/Hippa/SEC audit? good luck saying no...
How many have been through a SOX/Hippa/SEC audit? good luck saying no...
03-31-2017, 05:00 PM
#49
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All they need to pull you over is probable cause. They do not need a warrant to search/inspect the emissions gear once they have pulled the car over. The 4th amendment goes out the window once probable cause is introduced and the police - not you - are the ones that decide what is and isn't probable cause.
In CA, a loud car is more than enough to flag the vehicle in the eyes of the police for an inspection. Why? Chances are, a vehicle with modified exhaust is violating noise laws. Once you've been pulled over, its game on - and they don't need a warrant because the source for the initial contact was mechanical in nature. This clears them to visually inspect the rest of the car for mechanical violations.
In FL, and other states, they can pull you over for dark tint, or even having the radio up too loud. Its doesn't take a huge mental leap to see how a modded car in CA could be pulled over every 50' in a state as restrictive as CA.
In CA, a loud car is more than enough to flag the vehicle in the eyes of the police for an inspection. Why? Chances are, a vehicle with modified exhaust is violating noise laws. Once you've been pulled over, its game on - and they don't need a warrant because the source for the initial contact was mechanical in nature. This clears them to visually inspect the rest of the car for mechanical violations.
In FL, and other states, they can pull you over for dark tint, or even having the radio up too loud. Its doesn't take a huge mental leap to see how a modded car in CA could be pulled over every 50' in a state as restrictive as CA.
03-31-2017, 05:04 PM
#50
Village Troll 
iTrader: (2)
Cars fall under motor vehicle code, its not a "search" its an inspection which for EPA/Safety/Fire/Federal Compliance does not require a warrant, in most cases your supposed to get some notice but anyone whose seen someone **** off a building inspector should know how well its going to go if you try and take them to court..
OP,
You find out if the mufflers have an EO? If not, get some stock ones, get it inspected, go to court with your proof, come back home, put aftermarket mufflers back on, rinse/repeat.
03-31-2017, 05:42 PM
#51
TECH Addict
Cars fall under motor vehicle code, its not a "search" its an inspection which for EPA/Safety/Fire/Federal Compliance does not require a warrant, in most cases your supposed to get some notice but anyone whose seen someone **** off a building inspector should know how well its going to go if you try and take them to court..
How many have been through a SOX/Hippa/SEC audit? good luck saying no...
How many have been through a SOX/Hippa/SEC audit? good luck saying no...
See, this is exactly the problem I was talking about. Do you see how many of you just blindly say the government can basically do what they want, when they want, for what ever reason they want, because they feel a certain way about a person? It's crazy.
The Constitution was written specifically to avoid all of this current Governmental mess and over reach. The Constitution is a limitation of power from the people to the Government. And when the silent few speak out about how it's all illegal, we are the crazy ones, not the masses following like sheep to the slaughter because that's the way it's always been.
Is it a fight? Yes. But if everyone, everyone!, demanded the government obey the Constitution and recognize our individual inalienable rights, it wouldn't be a fight.
Last edited by hrcslam; 03-31-2017 at 05:51 PM.
03-31-2017, 06:03 PM
#52
TECH Regular
I'm not sure what part of "if they have probable cause, they don't need a warrant" is unclear, but whatever. If an officer states that they have cause to search your car, it's game over. You can try to insist that they're violating your 4th amendment rights (they're not - the Supreme Court said so...) and all that'll do is add "obstruction of justice" to your arrest sheet.
If they ask you to search, always - always - say no, because they don't have cause and probably wouldn't/couldn't get a warrant. If they tell you they're searching because they have established probable cause based on the officer's opinion that you or your car is in violation of the law - your best bet is to stand aside and let them search. Doing anything to fight it at that point will only cost you more money and probably a bit of pain.
Do I think it's ok? Hell no. But it is the way it is. You don't like it? Elect people to change it.
Not just "an individual". We're talking about a police officer, who - like it or not - has been given 'benefits' that you or I will never have. One of those is what we're discussing here. Consider them "super citizens". And yes, it IS enough to override the 4th. The Supreme Court said it is. Here's more info.
Again, in CA, all the officer needs to do is observe a vehicle driving by that he suspects is running parts that are not CA approved. They need to observe something REAL to establish probable cause. A bag of weed on the seat, a severed head on the floorboard, or in CA - an exhaust system that isn't stock. That gave them probable cause to search / inspect. In states without such Orwellian laws on car mods, this would be a far more difficult thing to prove. But it's CA - the home of the most restrictive emissions laws in the nation.
Edit: Funfact: Any cop, anywhere, can make your life very challenging if you've removed your catalytic convertors. Its federal law that if your car came with a cat, it has to have one that's OEM or equal. Doesn't matter if you live in a state that doesn't test. Federal fines for removing cats are like $15,000 or something absurd. It's rarely enforced, but it does happen. There was a guy on the 'vette forum that was cited by a cop for no cats and it cost him thousands.
If they ask you to search, always - always - say no, because they don't have cause and probably wouldn't/couldn't get a warrant. If they tell you they're searching because they have established probable cause based on the officer's opinion that you or your car is in violation of the law - your best bet is to stand aside and let them search. Doing anything to fight it at that point will only cost you more money and probably a bit of pain.
Do I think it's ok? Hell no. But it is the way it is. You don't like it? Elect people to change it.
Again, in CA, all the officer needs to do is observe a vehicle driving by that he suspects is running parts that are not CA approved. They need to observe something REAL to establish probable cause. A bag of weed on the seat, a severed head on the floorboard, or in CA - an exhaust system that isn't stock. That gave them probable cause to search / inspect. In states without such Orwellian laws on car mods, this would be a far more difficult thing to prove. But it's CA - the home of the most restrictive emissions laws in the nation.
Edit: Funfact: Any cop, anywhere, can make your life very challenging if you've removed your catalytic convertors. Its federal law that if your car came with a cat, it has to have one that's OEM or equal. Doesn't matter if you live in a state that doesn't test. Federal fines for removing cats are like $15,000 or something absurd. It's rarely enforced, but it does happen. There was a guy on the 'vette forum that was cited by a cop for no cats and it cost him thousands.
Last edited by atlantadan; 03-31-2017 at 10:37 PM.
04-01-2017, 12:27 AM
#53
But this is beside the OP's original point/issue......
Excessive noise levels are typically measured as 'X' decibels at 'Y' feet from the tailpipes. In most states, you'd be surprised what the threshold is for 'excessive exhaust noise'......you'd pretty much would have to run with no mufflers.
The only important questions here are:
1. What's the determinative factor for establishing a 'modified exhaust';
2. How did the officer establish an illegally modified exhaust without an inspection;
3. How did the officer determine a 'too loud' exhaust without measuring.....if in fact that is what he did.
KW
Last edited by KW Baraka; 04-01-2017 at 12:34 AM.
04-01-2017, 11:09 AM
#54
TECH Addict
I'm not sure what part of "if they have probable cause, they don't need a warrant" is unclear, but whatever. If an officer states that they have cause to search your car, it's game over. You can try to insist that they're violating your 4th amendment rights (they're not - the Supreme Court said so...) and all that'll do is add "obstruction of justice" to your arrest sheet.
If they ask you to search, always - always - say no, because they don't have cause and probably wouldn't/couldn't get a warrant. If they tell you they're searching because they have established probable cause based on the officer's opinion that you or your car is in violation of the law - your best bet is to stand aside and let them search. Doing anything to fight it at that point will only cost you more money and probably a bit of pain.
Do I think it's ok? Hell no. But it is the way it is. You don't like it? Elect people to change it.
Not just "an individual". We're talking about a police officer, who - like it or not - has been given 'benefits' that you or I will never have. One of those is what we're discussing here. Consider them "super citizens". And yes, it IS enough to override the 4th. The Supreme Court said it is. Here's more info.
Again, in CA, all the officer needs to do is observe a vehicle driving by that he suspects is running parts that are not CA approved. They need to observe something REAL to establish probable cause. A bag of weed on the seat, a severed head on the floorboard, or in CA - an exhaust system that isn't stock. That gave them probable cause to search / inspect. In states without such Orwellian laws on car mods, this would be a far more difficult thing to prove. But it's CA - the home of the most restrictive emissions laws in the nation.
Edit: Funfact: Any cop, anywhere, can make your life very challenging if you've removed your catalytic convertors. Its federal law that if your car came with a cat, it has to have one that's OEM or equal. Doesn't matter if you live in a state that doesn't test. Federal fines for removing cats are like $15,000 or something absurd. It's rarely enforced, but it does happen. There was a guy on the 'vette forum that was cited by a cop for no cats and it cost him thousands.
If they ask you to search, always - always - say no, because they don't have cause and probably wouldn't/couldn't get a warrant. If they tell you they're searching because they have established probable cause based on the officer's opinion that you or your car is in violation of the law - your best bet is to stand aside and let them search. Doing anything to fight it at that point will only cost you more money and probably a bit of pain.
Do I think it's ok? Hell no. But it is the way it is. You don't like it? Elect people to change it.
Not just "an individual". We're talking about a police officer, who - like it or not - has been given 'benefits' that you or I will never have. One of those is what we're discussing here. Consider them "super citizens". And yes, it IS enough to override the 4th. The Supreme Court said it is. Here's more info.
Again, in CA, all the officer needs to do is observe a vehicle driving by that he suspects is running parts that are not CA approved. They need to observe something REAL to establish probable cause. A bag of weed on the seat, a severed head on the floorboard, or in CA - an exhaust system that isn't stock. That gave them probable cause to search / inspect. In states without such Orwellian laws on car mods, this would be a far more difficult thing to prove. But it's CA - the home of the most restrictive emissions laws in the nation.
Edit: Funfact: Any cop, anywhere, can make your life very challenging if you've removed your catalytic convertors. Its federal law that if your car came with a cat, it has to have one that's OEM or equal. Doesn't matter if you live in a state that doesn't test. Federal fines for removing cats are like $15,000 or something absurd. It's rarely enforced, but it does happen. There was a guy on the 'vette forum that was cited by a cop for no cats and it cost him thousands.
An officer is a human. No super citizen status takes away from that. And it's all too easy to make it a point that they are humans prone to error and bias.
All that being said I've never had an issue with any officer. I treat them professional and courteous and treat them with respect for their position (being an officer is difficult) and life. I do have many officers that are good friends of mine, family and like family.
The easiest way to avoid all of this is to not live in areas that have this type of government. So I dont.
04-01-2017, 12:08 PM
#55
while this thread has shifted to what our rights as citizens are or not....
Op needs to answer the ?
WTF IS THE CITATION INFRACTION CODE HE GOT
full definition of whatever infraction he got can be looked up
Op needs to answer the ?
WTF IS THE CITATION INFRACTION CODE HE GOT
full definition of whatever infraction he got can be looked up
04-01-2017, 03:08 PM
#56
Man, F that state. I'm so glad I moved out of it. Just to add to the discussion, those roadside "smog" checkpoints are VOLUNTARY, you do not have to consent to them. My Dad lives in southern CA and has been hassled like that before, all you have to do is say NO and drive off.
04-03-2017, 11:31 AM
#58
So I got pulled over yesterday by two cops they asked to pop my hood.they see my lts and checked under my car and see no cat they wrote the ticket and got me for modified cat,headers,and exhaust.I've done some reaserch and I found that a lot of ppl just pay the fine and get it done with.my ticket says state ref bar inspection along with the other violations.what would be the best thing to do? My car has ported heads,non emissions friendly cam,lts,no cat,ory pipe,and no smog equipment. If I take it to the ref would they just inspect my violations or make sure the car is completly legal. I'm in cali
04-03-2017, 02:41 PM
#60
TECH Regular