Which aluminum heads?
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
From: Apopka FL
It's going to depend on the power you want and how hard you are going to lean on it. 99% of lt1 na setups will run fine and perform with a ported stock head. As for who's stuff to run. Just start looking at the top running na cars to see who's stuff delivers real world performance. When it comes to power adders there's going to be a lot variances from one combination to another. Also how much power and how hard you want to run it makes a big difference in what you want to run. Imo any time you want to run north of 7xx you should be running a aftermarket casting. They generally are a much heavier casting and will survive better. As for the comment about afr being junk. I have ran the same set of 210's for 13 years making north of 700 for most of those years. Only thing we have changed is springs.
TECH Regular
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 442
Likes: 3
From: Raleigh, NC
If those aren't enough, dig out another $695 and just get the AI 212cc 21 degree Trick Flow head.
The second option will dyno approximately 20-40 numbers over the first with everything else being equal, and has made a bit over 500rwhp NA with HR cams in manual-transmission street cars. But that's essentially the only real scenario in which going with an aftermarket casting will provide any real, measurable benefit. Like others have said, the ported factory casting will work well for nearly all but the most radical or specialized setups.
There is no compelling reason whatsoever to get aftermarket castings unless you are going to spend the money to apply the same quality of machine work to them that you would any other head.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 795
Likes: 2
From: Midlothian, Virginia
$1800 is actually not a bad deal for what you get. High quality machine work and premium valvetrain components are not cheap. Hit up your local craigslist for a decent set of used factory castings to use as cores. Shouldn't cost any more than $200.
If those aren't enough, dig out another $695 and just get the AI 212cc 21 degree Trick Flow head.
The second option will dyno approximately 20-40 numbers over the first with everything else being equal, and has made a bit over 500rwhp NA with HR cams in manual-transmission street cars. But that's essentially the only real scenario in which going with an aftermarket casting will provide any real, measurable benefit. Like others have said, the ported factory casting will work well for nearly all but the most radical or specialized setups.
There is no compelling reason whatsoever to get aftermarket castings unless you are going to spend the money to apply the same quality of machine work to them that you would any other head.
If those aren't enough, dig out another $695 and just get the AI 212cc 21 degree Trick Flow head.
The second option will dyno approximately 20-40 numbers over the first with everything else being equal, and has made a bit over 500rwhp NA with HR cams in manual-transmission street cars. But that's essentially the only real scenario in which going with an aftermarket casting will provide any real, measurable benefit. Like others have said, the ported factory casting will work well for nearly all but the most radical or specialized setups.
There is no compelling reason whatsoever to get aftermarket castings unless you are going to spend the money to apply the same quality of machine work to them that you would any other head.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 2
From: Nebraska
LE's are hand ported and he uses lesser quality valve train parts. Not saying they are junk but the price reflects the quality as many people have had great luck with them. AI is completely CNC machined top notch work with very good quality parts.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
From: Apopka FL
Cnc porting is only as good as the program. All cnc programs are based off a hand ported cylinder head. So the only real advantage cnc has over a hand ported head is the repeatability from one head to another.
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Regular
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 442
Likes: 3
From: Raleigh, NC
AI's stuff is CNC'd, Lloyd's is hand ported. I would expect a greater degree of consistency and repeatability in the CNC heads.
Both outfits have very good reputations and I wouldn't try to talk you out of either.
Considering that the AI TFS head is only $300 more than the out-of-the-box price you quoted for the 195cc TFS head, I'd consider going with the AI CNC'd TFS head a no-brainer.
I'm not sure what valvetrain parts Lloyd uses, but I know AI uses all top-shelf stuff and that is reflected in the cost of their work.
AI's stuff is CNC'd, Lloyd's is hand ported. I would expect a greater degree of consistency and repeatability in the CNC heads.
Both outfits have very good reputations and I wouldn't try to talk you out of either.
Considering that the AI TFS head is only $300 more than the out-of-the-box price you quoted for the 195cc TFS head, I'd consider going with the AI CNC'd TFS head a no-brainer.
AI's stuff is CNC'd, Lloyd's is hand ported. I would expect a greater degree of consistency and repeatability in the CNC heads.
Both outfits have very good reputations and I wouldn't try to talk you out of either.
Considering that the AI TFS head is only $300 more than the out-of-the-box price you quoted for the 195cc TFS head, I'd consider going with the AI CNC'd TFS head a no-brainer.
AI costs more because it uses CNC porting, this results in a higher level of repeatability like others have posted. Also because of this the company also has more overhead to cover.
Look up the cost of a quality 5 axis vertical CNC mill and CAM software and you'll understand where the extra money is getting spent. This is also not to mention cost of tool holders, coolant, grease/waylube, air, electricty, shop hours for programming, etc.
Compare this to the cost of a quality manual mill, air tools, and a rotary tool and you'll see why there is a price difference.
If you don't feel like adding it up yourself there's at minimum around $150,000 to $200,000 difference in start up costs between the two. The 5 axis vertical CNC mill is around 10x the cost of a manual mill, and the CAM software around $10-15k, just some food for thought.
Look up the cost of a quality 5 axis vertical CNC mill and CAM software and you'll understand where the extra money is getting spent. This is also not to mention cost of tool holders, coolant, grease/waylube, air, electricty, shop hours for programming, etc.
Compare this to the cost of a quality manual mill, air tools, and a rotary tool and you'll see why there is a price difference.
If you don't feel like adding it up yourself there's at minimum around $150,000 to $200,000 difference in start up costs between the two. The 5 axis vertical CNC mill is around 10x the cost of a manual mill, and the CAM software around $10-15k, just some food for thought.
Last edited by myltwon; Aug 10, 2015 at 08:09 PM.
AI costs more because it uses CNC porting, this results in a higher level of repeatability like others have posted. Also because of this the company also has more overhead to cover.
Look up the cost of a quality 5 axis vertical CNC mill and CAM software and you'll understand where the extra money is getting spent. This is also not to mention cost of tool holders, coolant, grease/waylube, air, electricty, shop hours for programming, etc.
Compare this to the cost of a quality manual mill, air tools, and a rotary tool and you'll see why there is a price difference.
If you don't feel like adding it up yourself there's at minimum around $150,000 to $200,000 difference in start up costs between the two. The 5 axis vertical CNC mill is around 10x the cost of a manual mill, and the CAM software around $10-15k, just some food for thought.
Look up the cost of a quality 5 axis vertical CNC mill and CAM software and you'll understand where the extra money is getting spent. This is also not to mention cost of tool holders, coolant, grease/waylube, air, electricty, shop hours for programming, etc.
Compare this to the cost of a quality manual mill, air tools, and a rotary tool and you'll see why there is a price difference.
If you don't feel like adding it up yourself there's at minimum around $150,000 to $200,000 difference in start up costs between the two. The 5 axis vertical CNC mill is around 10x the cost of a manual mill, and the CAM software around $10-15k, just some food for thought.
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: VA
Lesser quality parts...could you please enlighten us?
Like anything else NC related, garbage in, garbage out.
Don't pretend like you are getting a billet CNC head, its a glorified mass production tool in this aspect.