Alright, with money being no option, in your opinion who makes the best heads for the LT cars?

 

Ported LT1 castings with your own Valvetrain.

 

Ported Lt1 castings?

Airflowdevelopment = $7000+ for NHRA SS legal LT1 castings.

Money is always a consideration, period.

Bret

 

if I had a $2000 budget I would get some trickflows and have them done by lloyd elliot. I know ive seen them top 300 cfm somewhere.

I spent $1850 for LE3 LT1 castings that flow 272 cfm peak but have some good mid lift numbers along with larger valves and comp 977 springs, a cam that was custom tailored to what I wanted, AND an LT1 intake ported and port matched to the heads. that included shipping and handling.

 

Well most of us dont spend 7gs on castings. I was talking about LE or AI.

 

Oh Ok, take zigroid as and example, to get the same setup as a LE3 from Ai takes about $900 more for just the heads. (New valve seats, Ferrea 6000 series 2.055/1.600" valves, beehive springs and Ti retainers along with all the labor)

Bret

 

Go through Port Pros and get him to work a set of AFR bare castings for ya. Price is good and you will not be disappointed!!

www.portpros.com

.....

 

Just got my new AI heads and am blown away by the quality of the workmanship. The detail work is amazing. I've seen the LE stuff Bret, even you should know that it is NOT the same product. Should have some new #s very shortly. Hoping to set the record even lower, with the old school Joe O cam

 

The general makes the best heads. GM 615 canted valve heads- require pistons, valvetrain, conversion to reverse flow, porting, labor...hey you said money is no option. These heads will outflow everything listed so far. Just ask warren johnson....

 

tpis or AFR no question about it

 

A base Ai head is all you need to equal an LE3. Upgrades should be for those that need it.

I run full port Ai heads and they don't have huge valves, titanium retainers or behive springs.

Does that make my heads less than an LE1,2,3?

No...and I would love to race a similar car and prove it, but unfortunately that car doesn't exist.

 

I'd say ported AFRs are going to flow the best. I will have some new AFR 210 bare castings coming in any day now that I will be selling. Change of plans on my project and the heads are too big.

 

Bret's post could be taken two differnt ways one he is detailing why the AI stuff costs more, they are putting more parts and therefore labor into it, leaving it a seperate issue as to wether that stuff is necessary or not. Or he could be saying they need all that just to equal the flow of LEs heads BUT if you go camaroz28.co there is a current thread by LE that states how head flow at 28" is basically more marketting than real test of performance.

Fact is we are talking abou5t several shops and all have strengths and weaknesses and different ideas of how to arrive at the same goal just pick the vendors whos theories and goals align best with yourown.

 

First off,

Guys i've seen a number of heads from a host of different people, Ai, LE, Larry Meaux, GTP, TEA, CFE, Cup Heads etc... in the shop I think I have some place to make a judgement call on what quality and detail work are.

Secondly,

Money does play into this, period. My post should be taken as that. If the excuse that Ai doesn't need bigger valves, to get the flow when then I'll just let them keep doing that because the guys I get heads from that I consider at another level from them seem to use them all the time, reguardless of the flow gains. I know why they do it, and it's the same reason why Lloyd does it. The comparison of the parts in the heads, seperate from the labor is amazing to me. I don't consider Ferrrea 5000 series valves, dual springs and steel retainers to be the same thing as Ferrea 6000 series valves, beehives and Ti retainers.

Third,

Don't even get on the details train with me. I've yanked apart enough motors in my shop to see $1500 cranks, $1000 rods and custom pistons put together in the least detailed engine I've ever seen next to a stock GM shortblock. I'm a stickler on details when it comes to motors. Details do cost more, because of more labor. My point of comparing LE to Ai is that I don't feel that at the level we are talking about here those "details" (which FWIW you can't really see, and most probably can't measure) aren't giving the customer more power or durability IMHO.

Does that mean I think that Ai does a bad job? No, not at all, I think they make a hell of a cylinder hea and applaud them for being stickers on the details. For the coin I would just take them someplace where I feel I get more for the money. That's my professional and personal opinion on the matter. I might be a little bias because I work with Lloyd, but I'm not completely one sided, I do use a number of different head porters, Lloyd fitting a good nitche for some of them, but hell I can't blame the guys who get Ai stuff for defending their purchase of more expensive parts either.

Bret

 

I think I understood you pretty well I just thought the people argueing two seperate sides of this needed to read it said more like I did because people were getting defensive and reading it as one sided. I also agree that there are a lot of people who defend parts they have simply to defend their decision the more expensive the part the more likely this is to happen. There are guys on the b-body boards that went BIG on cams deep on gears and still are slower than the guys with VERY mild setups like mine and they swear the cam with over 230 on the intake is the best thing ever and it is if you want a foul mannered pig that doesn't back it up at the track, IN THIS CAR that just isn't what works best and they would need a less streetable stall to make it work well.

Along the lines of what I said earlier different sometimes just means different not better or worse. IMO this is along the lines of converters where some guys swear Yank or Vig are the only good ones with their billet covers and $700+ pricetag and they certainly are good converters but there are some guys swapping to cheaper Edge converters for instance not getting a billet cover and going just as fast and sometimes faster for $200 less. Does that make one better or worse not really because someone else is going faster with the more expensive converter and well it is stronger even though the vast majority of us will never need that billet cover, I am not saying nobody should buy a converter with a billet cover just understand that while it is stronger you are unlikely to ever need that strength.

Bret BTW love the quote in your sig truer words were never spoken, I did the cam way to early on in my mods and saw little gain then the converter, gears and headers pulled it together bit by bit and I have dropped nearly 2 seconds with them, it is all about the combination.

 

I assumed that the question was what TYPE of LTX casting was the best. In that respect I stick with AFR LT4 castings.

 

Please refrain from quoting our products. We all know you are a legend in your own mind but quoting other business's jobs is even beyond your powers...I think?

Ron

 

If every trick in the book, and every different part really made LE heads the best bang for the buck and the best ported lt1, then why aren't they out performing anyone?

You can argue budget build this, or setup that, but consumers that KNOW what they want and EXPECT results, seem to drift toward Ai. If you have a goal of going fast...you better have a healthy budget. You get what you pay for, and the results speak volumes.

When more LE customers run low 11s or 10s than do 12s, you might have something to preach about.

 

Do you mean N/A or on the juice. I'm not in the 11's yet but knocking on the door at 4400lbs and LE2 heads and off the shelf CC XE224/230 small street cam. With a good dyno tune not just a mail order tune (which the car has now) it will be in the 11's N/A. On juice depending on the shot who knows. Evryone has their own preference on who they want to use. In my case I picked up 9 tenths of a second so far with the LE2 heads over my last ported heads done by another well know head porter. And they were AFR's .
HVY SS

 

Pot calling the kettle black right there.

Ron, that's a direct comparison from a customer who got a quote from you and then ended up going with Lloyd. A $800-$900 difference is hard to make up in HP/$ when it's close to doubling the price of the setup. If you guys can get customers to pay that, then hell I applaud you for that.

You ever notice this quote from me above..

"Does that mean I think that Ai does a bad job? No, not at all, I think they make a hell of a cylinder head and applaud them for being stickers on the details. "

I've fixed a couple of your valvetrain setups FWIW, after bent valves and tons of valve float from the wrong springs, I fixed the valves and springs, dropped a smaller cam in the car and picked up over 30rwhp and more average TQ in one occasion. In another gave the guy enough vacuum so he could drive the car on the street (which was of huge importance to him), made the exact same max HP with 25-30 ft lbs more TQ through out the whole RPM range. Didn't touch the head ports or the valve job with either of them since they were pretty good to start.... as I said I've had experience with your stuff, and ended up making YOUR customers very happy once the problems were fixed, the way I see it for the money they spent it should have been RIGHT the first time around.

Think whatever you want of me, I could honestly care less. Our two ego's are not going to get along, but that's fine by me.

Bret