thinking of getting headers and Cutouts
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Jul 2017
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From: Cuba, MO
There is no such thing as a street car for racing. The minute you say racing, those are sponsor cars (teams with excess funds for stuff like R&D). The minute you say racing, you are saying sponsor cars, money to play with, hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on developing the best of your class. And the vehicle in question loses all of it's street driven weight, it changes completely. You can put 20k just into a racing 'chassis', and that is just to start things off before any drivetrain is installed.
You can't use racing and street driving in the same sentence, and be taken seriously by a sponsor paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to win a race event.
So lets look at an NA race car for a minute. A nascar or something? The point is that the sponsor is paying for the development of parts which fine tune the existing nature of the engine and chassis together, for optimal performance in a very specific application. There is no room for 'street car stuff' or much comfort. The exhaust would need to be tuned specifically for the engine to give optimal engine VE in the range where the engine is kept most often, and that is all that needs to be done besides meeting some kind of class specific noise requirement.
Class restricted stuff aside, we do not 'race'. Our cars, if they have turn signals and dash boards or whatever, drive on the street, and so we are not bound to these racing type rules. Furthermore we do not get 'sponsors' paying for our R&D. So the playing field is sort of an 'anything goes that we can get away with'. So that is how I play the street car game: by setting goals for cost, power, noise, handling, etc... using experience and then try to meet those goals using an anything goes attitude.
You can't use racing and street driving in the same sentence, and be taken seriously by a sponsor paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to win a race event.
So lets look at an NA race car for a minute. A nascar or something? The point is that the sponsor is paying for the development of parts which fine tune the existing nature of the engine and chassis together, for optimal performance in a very specific application. There is no room for 'street car stuff' or much comfort. The exhaust would need to be tuned specifically for the engine to give optimal engine VE in the range where the engine is kept most often, and that is all that needs to be done besides meeting some kind of class specific noise requirement.
Class restricted stuff aside, we do not 'race'. Our cars, if they have turn signals and dash boards or whatever, drive on the street, and so we are not bound to these racing type rules. Furthermore we do not get 'sponsors' paying for our R&D. So the playing field is sort of an 'anything goes that we can get away with'. So that is how I play the street car game: by setting goals for cost, power, noise, handling, etc... using experience and then try to meet those goals using an anything goes attitude.
sorry man but there you are wrong again. no such thing as a street car racing? so if mine is a street car that I drive everyday and on the weekends is not a race car? nope its not a pro mod. not a street stock not top fuel but it is still a race car. when you line up on the line the bulbs light up theres another guy in the next lane. that's a race one should we get the dictionary out and put up the meaning of RACE?
and where did it ever come up about sponsorships? don't get that one either. do you think Tide laundry detergent cares about the development of racing parts or any part on the car in a nascar race other than where there logo is displayed? hell no all they pay for is the exposure of their name in a huge field like Nascar they could give 2 ***** about what parts are on the car or whatever brand the car even is as long as there name is in front of millions of spectators in the stands and on TV.
you my friend have no clue what you are talking about at all
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Schiller Park, ILL Member: #317
There is no such thing as a street car for racing. The minute you say racing, those are sponsor cars (teams with excess funds for stuff like R&D). The minute you say racing, you are saying sponsor cars, money to play with, hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on developing the best of your class. And the vehicle in question loses all of it's street driven weight, it changes completely. You can put 20k just into a racing 'chassis', and that is just to start things off before any drivetrain is installed.
You can't use racing and street driving in the same sentence, and be taken seriously by a sponsor paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to win a race event.
So lets look at an NA race car for a minute. A nascar or something? The point is that the sponsor is paying for the development of parts which fine tune the existing nature of the engine and chassis together, for optimal performance in a very specific application. There is no room for 'street car stuff' or much comfort. The exhaust would need to be tuned specifically for the engine to give optimal engine VE in the range where the engine is kept most often, and that is all that needs to be done besides meeting some kind of class specific noise requirement.
Class restricted stuff aside, we do not 'race'. Our cars, if they have turn signals and dash boards or whatever, drive on the street, and so we are not bound to these racing type rules. Furthermore we do not get 'sponsors' paying for our R&D. So the playing field is sort of an 'anything goes that we can get away with'. So that is how I play the street car game: by setting goals for cost, power, noise, handling, etc... using experience and then try to meet those goals using an anything goes attitude.
You can't use racing and street driving in the same sentence, and be taken seriously by a sponsor paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to win a race event.
So lets look at an NA race car for a minute. A nascar or something? The point is that the sponsor is paying for the development of parts which fine tune the existing nature of the engine and chassis together, for optimal performance in a very specific application. There is no room for 'street car stuff' or much comfort. The exhaust would need to be tuned specifically for the engine to give optimal engine VE in the range where the engine is kept most often, and that is all that needs to be done besides meeting some kind of class specific noise requirement.
Class restricted stuff aside, we do not 'race'. Our cars, if they have turn signals and dash boards or whatever, drive on the street, and so we are not bound to these racing type rules. Furthermore we do not get 'sponsors' paying for our R&D. So the playing field is sort of an 'anything goes that we can get away with'. So that is how I play the street car game: by setting goals for cost, power, noise, handling, etc... using experience and then try to meet those goals using an anything goes attitude.
However, all that needed to be said was this:
A cut-out, headers, a better flowing muffler....it's all the same principle; it's just a matter of what you consider to be "significant" and/or an acceptable trade-off for the application.
OP, to answer your original question, the SE headers and y-pipe seem to be good pieces. I have not personally run them but they get a lot of good feedback on this forum. Like others have said, you might not want to run them with the LM1 because the drone and volume will likely be uncomfortable.
As far as the cut out goes, I think that is personal preference. I actually have a brand new electric one sitting in my shed. The reason I never put it on is because I have read a lot of horror stories about them breaking and I just don't want to deal with it. The general consensus, as I understand it from reading feedback on this forum, is that it only nets you 4-6 hp over a good flowing exhaust on mildly modified cars like ours. I may have mine thrown on one day...we will see.
I do like the way it sounds on a cammed car and in the event that my calendar allows me to spend more time at that place where I line up with other cars (can I say track?) and we drive for a 1/4 mile as quickly as we can ( I think the guys with sponsors call it something like "racing" but IDK...) I will probably throw it on to see if I can tell the difference.
As far as the cut out goes, I think that is personal preference. I actually have a brand new electric one sitting in my shed. The reason I never put it on is because I have read a lot of horror stories about them breaking and I just don't want to deal with it. The general consensus, as I understand it from reading feedback on this forum, is that it only nets you 4-6 hp over a good flowing exhaust on mildly modified cars like ours. I may have mine thrown on one day...we will see.
I do like the way it sounds on a cammed car and in the event that my calendar allows me to spend more time at that place where I line up with other cars (can I say track?) and we drive for a 1/4 mile as quickly as we can ( I think the guys with sponsors call it something like "racing" but IDK...) I will probably throw it on to see if I can tell the difference.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 102
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From: Cuba, MO
LOOK WHAT I FOUND FELLAS...THE DEFENITION
race1
[reys] /reɪs/
Spell Syllables
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun 1. a contest of speed, as in running, riding, driving, or sailing.
2. races, a series of races, usually of horses or dogs, run at a set time over a regular course: They spent a day at the races.
3. any contest or competition, especially to achieve superiority: the arms race; the presidential race.
race1
[reys] /reɪs/
Spell Syllables
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun 1. a contest of speed, as in running, riding, driving, or sailing.
2. races, a series of races, usually of horses or dogs, run at a set time over a regular course: They spent a day at the races.
3. any contest or competition, especially to achieve superiority: the arms race; the presidential race.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Cuba, MO
OP, to answer your original question, the SE headers and y-pipe seem to be good pieces. I have not personally run them but they get a lot of good feedback on this forum. Like others have said, you might not want to run them with the LM1 because the drone and volume will likely be uncomfortable.
As far as the cut out goes, I think that is personal preference. I actually have a brand new electric one sitting in my shed. The reason I never put it on is because I have read a lot of horror stories about them breaking and I just don't want to deal with it. The general consensus, as I understand it from reading feedback on this forum, is that it only nets you 4-6 hp over a good flowing exhaust on mildly modified cars like ours. I may have mine thrown on one day...we will see.
I do like the way it sounds on a cammed car and in the event that my calendar allows me to spend more time at that place where I line up with other cars (can I say track?) and we drive for a 1/4 mile as quickly as we can ( I think the guys with sponsors call it something like "racing" but IDK...) I will probably throw it on to see if I can tell the difference.
As far as the cut out goes, I think that is personal preference. I actually have a brand new electric one sitting in my shed. The reason I never put it on is because I have read a lot of horror stories about them breaking and I just don't want to deal with it. The general consensus, as I understand it from reading feedback on this forum, is that it only nets you 4-6 hp over a good flowing exhaust on mildly modified cars like ours. I may have mine thrown on one day...we will see.
I do like the way it sounds on a cammed car and in the event that my calendar allows me to spend more time at that place where I line up with other cars (can I say track?) and we drive for a 1/4 mile as quickly as we can ( I think the guys with sponsors call it something like "racing" but IDK...) I will probably throw it on to see if I can tell the difference.
im like you love the sound of open headers at the race track. I had thought about putting the cut outs on each header that have bolt on caps. the electric kind I don't think I would want just like you had said with something happening to it.
who knows its not like I "race" this car anyway I just drive it down a "track" and don't have sponsors so it cant be racing
I'm gonna jump out of a ******* window if KingJagoff talks anymore.
RPM - he is the most annoying guy on here, can't you boot him. Please. He ruins every thread he responds to.
RPM - he is the most annoying guy on here, can't you boot him. Please. He ruins every thread he responds to.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,798
Likes: 16
From: St.Charles MO
There is no such thing as a street car for racing. The minute you say racing, those are sponsor cars (teams with excess funds for stuff like R&D). The minute you say racing, you are saying sponsor cars, money to play with, hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on developing the best of your class. And the vehicle in question loses all of it's street driven weight, it changes completely. You can put 20k just into a racing 'chassis', and that is just to start things off before any drivetrain is installed.
You can't use racing and street driving in the same sentence, and be taken seriously by a sponsor paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to win a race event.
So lets look at an NA race car for a minute. A nascar or something? The point is that the sponsor is paying for the development of parts which fine tune the existing nature of the engine and chassis together, for optimal performance in a very specific application. There is no room for 'street car stuff' or much comfort. The exhaust would need to be tuned specifically for the engine to give optimal engine VE in the range where the engine is kept most often, and that is all that needs to be done besides meeting some kind of class specific noise requirement.
Class restricted stuff aside, we do not 'race'. Our cars, if they have turn signals and dash boards or whatever, drive on the street, and so we are not bound to these racing type rules. Furthermore we do not get 'sponsors' paying for our R&D. So the playing field is sort of an 'anything goes that we can get away with'. So that is how I play the street car game: by setting goals for cost, power, noise, handling, etc... using experience and then try to meet those goals using an anything goes attitude.
You can't use racing and street driving in the same sentence, and be taken seriously by a sponsor paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to win a race event.
So lets look at an NA race car for a minute. A nascar or something? The point is that the sponsor is paying for the development of parts which fine tune the existing nature of the engine and chassis together, for optimal performance in a very specific application. There is no room for 'street car stuff' or much comfort. The exhaust would need to be tuned specifically for the engine to give optimal engine VE in the range where the engine is kept most often, and that is all that needs to be done besides meeting some kind of class specific noise requirement.
Class restricted stuff aside, we do not 'race'. Our cars, if they have turn signals and dash boards or whatever, drive on the street, and so we are not bound to these racing type rules. Furthermore we do not get 'sponsors' paying for our R&D. So the playing field is sort of an 'anything goes that we can get away with'. So that is how I play the street car game: by setting goals for cost, power, noise, handling, etc... using experience and then try to meet those goals using an anything goes attitude.
Alright lets just be simple where.
What do you call it when you take your street car to the dragstrip on test and tune and drive the quarter mile as quickly as you can?
What about if you go to a road course or oval track with your street car and drive as quickly as possible around the track?
Is there a word for that?
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,798
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From: St.Charles MO
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,798
Likes: 16
From: St.Charles MO
I built a 700R4 trans in 2000, A forged 9.5:1 blower motor in 2001, and a twin turbo V8 with a stand-alone ECU in 2002. All by myself- no shop involvement. Tuned a hundred cars since then. Not trying to brag, just saying this isn't my first V8. Its just my first LS motor.
Try to think of the engine without the car. Imagine it floating in the air. What kind of exhaust do you think it will want? It doesn't depend on the vehicle- it depends on the engine performance goal and owner's noise level desires. If the goal is strictly performance, the resulting shape and size of exhaust will be quite different than if the goal is silence.
So now with that all being said, with the same logic you just used, what would you do with a stock LS1 when the owner wants the car to be loud and make more power while staying NA?
Now work backwards with that in mind. A goal of silence means sacrificing power- or does it?
Why not have both? Whats the difference between a stock exhaust with a cut-out, and a performance exhaust with a cut-out? In general, a well positioned, correctly opened/sized cut-out will always out perform any full length "performance" exhaust. So all a performance exhaust system does really is cost unnecessary money and creates noise you can't ever shut off. It's like a nice set of wheels- very pretty to the owner, very 'useful' to the owner, cosmetic noise. To others, maybe not so pretty, and completely unnecessary.
A performance exhaust can cut weight significantly compared to an oem exhaust. An aftermarket exhaust can change the sound and tone of the exhaust while not increasing actual volume that much as well. You can get a much better sound (not louder) with an aftermarket exhaust that isn't as loud as a cutout to enjoy driving around on.
I just built a 5.3 single turbo/4l80e. What kind of exhaust system do you think I am using with all this 'knowledge'? Im about to buy a $30 walker muffler with OEM internal baffles designs to keep this thing quiet. And if that doesn't keep it silent enough, I will add another one in series until I am satisfied. I don't give a crap about how it sounds- I don't want to hear it at all. The dial in the cockpit tells the engine how much power to make- not the exhaust system. 20 horsepower? 40 horsepower? You have to be joking me. If the system suffers significantly a cut-out will fix all for those all important "gotcha" moments.
A cutout will do nothing for the poor flowing stock exhaust manifolds on an NA build.
WARNING- ****I DO NOT AGREE WITH KINGTALON*****
But the funniest part of this thread is that KingTalon is correct for all the wrong reasons.....The #1 mod for an A4 Fbody is a torque converter and tune. Go ahead and add 20hp on a bone stock Fbody and youll pick up maybe a couple tenths....and then add a good torque converter and drop half a second. Torque converter>>Exhaust for an A4.
But the funniest part of this thread is that KingTalon is correct for all the wrong reasons.....The #1 mod for an A4 Fbody is a torque converter and tune. Go ahead and add 20hp on a bone stock Fbody and youll pick up maybe a couple tenths....and then add a good torque converter and drop half a second. Torque converter>>Exhaust for an A4.
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Joined: Aug 2015
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WARNING- ****I DO NOT AGREE WITH KINGTALON*****
But the funniest part of this thread is that KingTalon is correct for all the wrong reasons.....The #1 mod for an A4 Fbody is a torque converter and tune. Go ahead and add 20hp on a bone stock Fbody and youll pick up maybe a couple tenths....and then add a good torque converter and drop half a second. Torque converter>>Exhaust for an A4.
But the funniest part of this thread is that KingTalon is correct for all the wrong reasons.....The #1 mod for an A4 Fbody is a torque converter and tune. Go ahead and add 20hp on a bone stock Fbody and youll pick up maybe a couple tenths....and then add a good torque converter and drop half a second. Torque converter>>Exhaust for an A4.
I think some of my definitions and root beliefs are being mis-interpreted. Which I expected (I can't very well type all of that stuff it would take a year) but cannot do much about because of length. I do not mind the "hate" as I consider it a therapy for individuals learning when using a forum (it gets the mind "going").
First, I do not consider headers as an "loud exhaust system". If an engine can be DRIVING, down the street, or down a strip, safely, it must have some form of header (I use the term loosely to indicate the valves are protected), that much is non-negotiable. I never meant you should not install a header or high quality associated parts (like a "y" pipe if necessary) to keep the exhaust valves safe and provide some form of velocity induced cylinder scavenging. In a daily driver this could improve economy AND power, very useful and easy to change parts like this for All engines, whether NA or FI would benefit from that. Because it is a necessity, I do not consider it as "changing" anything with respect to noise (the engine needs to run safely, period). In other words, if you change out a stock manifold for a high performance header, you aren't "changing" the exhaust system to be louder necessarily. You are merely updating or improving the situation with a bolt-on part that is easy to remove also (very nice to use that kind of part). My initial post of "do exhaust last" applies to this in only one way: If future mods outgrow the header or y-pipe you just installed, you maybe should have waited (caution and planning is sometimes rewarding).
moving on.
Second, I never said to NOT install an exhaust system. I only said I would leave it for last as a cosmetic issue in many cases once everything else is setup (noise is cosmetic. You dont need noise to go 'fast'). I would personally start with around the intake air filter. Then the PCV system is very important, then intake cold air ducting. Then focus on the engine, h/c/i the usual. Somehwere in there you address the trans, suspension, wheels, differential, drivetrain overall. Then finally the exhaust 'system' would be modified to meet the goal of the engine. A high quality header can be installed at any point, especially if you are sure you will never outgrow the one you selected (lifetime bolt on parts go in at any time). Its like lego pieces that snap together, sometimes you can snap the wrong piece into place if you don't have an overall goal or plan in mind for the finished product.
First, I am only being accurate when I say racing is strictly for the race track. We all like to drive fast on the street (my car is the epitome of this idea) but it is illegal to discuss on a forum openly in some situations (I know some people who wont be going to certain schools because of this). Basically, if you are buying pre-made parts and not manufacturing your own, paying out of pocket, you are not really racing anything except your own personal bank account. To me, the less you spent to go faster, is the real winner. For example, if you have a 500 horsepower 2800lbs bullet proof 93 octane daily driver with at least 25mpg which might achieve 50,000 miles out of a $400 engine. Can you go faster and farther for less? The race is on.
First, I do not consider headers as an "loud exhaust system". If an engine can be DRIVING, down the street, or down a strip, safely, it must have some form of header (I use the term loosely to indicate the valves are protected), that much is non-negotiable. I never meant you should not install a header or high quality associated parts (like a "y" pipe if necessary) to keep the exhaust valves safe and provide some form of velocity induced cylinder scavenging. In a daily driver this could improve economy AND power, very useful and easy to change parts like this for All engines, whether NA or FI would benefit from that. Because it is a necessity, I do not consider it as "changing" anything with respect to noise (the engine needs to run safely, period). In other words, if you change out a stock manifold for a high performance header, you aren't "changing" the exhaust system to be louder necessarily. You are merely updating or improving the situation with a bolt-on part that is easy to remove also (very nice to use that kind of part). My initial post of "do exhaust last" applies to this in only one way: If future mods outgrow the header or y-pipe you just installed, you maybe should have waited (caution and planning is sometimes rewarding).
moving on.
Second, I never said to NOT install an exhaust system. I only said I would leave it for last as a cosmetic issue in many cases once everything else is setup (noise is cosmetic. You dont need noise to go 'fast'). I would personally start with around the intake air filter. Then the PCV system is very important, then intake cold air ducting. Then focus on the engine, h/c/i the usual. Somehwere in there you address the trans, suspension, wheels, differential, drivetrain overall. Then finally the exhaust 'system' would be modified to meet the goal of the engine. A high quality header can be installed at any point, especially if you are sure you will never outgrow the one you selected (lifetime bolt on parts go in at any time). Its like lego pieces that snap together, sometimes you can snap the wrong piece into place if you don't have an overall goal or plan in mind for the finished product.
Dude... can I have some of what you are on? That must be some trippy stuff...
Alright lets just be simple where.
What do you call it when you take your street car to the dragstrip on test and tune and drive the quarter mile as quickly as you can?
What about if you go to a road course or oval track with your street car and drive as quickly as possible around the track?
Is there a word for that?
Alright lets just be simple where.
What do you call it when you take your street car to the dragstrip on test and tune and drive the quarter mile as quickly as you can?
What about if you go to a road course or oval track with your street car and drive as quickly as possible around the track?
Is there a word for that?
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 34,604
Likes: 2,507
From: Schiller Park, ILL Member: #317
First, I am only being accurate when I say racing is strictly for the race track. We all like to drive fast on the street (my car is the epitome of this idea) but it is illegal to discuss on a forum openly in some situations (I know some people who wont be going to certain schools because of this). Basically, if you are buying pre-made parts and not manufacturing your own, paying out of pocket, you are not really racing anything except your own personal bank account. To me, the less you spent to go faster, is the real winner. For example, if you have a 500 horsepower 2800lbs bullet proof 93 octane daily driver with at least 25mpg which might achieve 50,000 miles out of a $400 engine. Can you go faster and farther for less? The race is on.
Second, I never said to NOT install an exhaust system. I only said I would leave it for last as a cosmetic issue in many cases once everything else is setup (noise is cosmetic. You dont need noise to go 'fast'). I would personally start with around the intake air filter. Then the PCV system is very important, then intake cold air ducting.
Starting with the PCV system on an otherwise stock LS1 will leave you behind any competitor who starts with the exhaust system instead.
Ah, thank you for mentioning the pcv, as to PCV:
Proper intake-driven PCV system will always reduce power some percentage. This is because the pressure drop behind the air filter directly drives WOT pcv action- it takes more air from the crankcase (contaminated air) as the filter becomes more clogged and pcv action improves. In other words, the better the PCV system is working during WOT, the more contaminated air the engine ingests (which results with cleaner engine oil, a fair trade in the eyes of OEM manufacturers).
I did not make the list as a power-improvement list, I made it to be a generic engine/daily driver longevity list. Those are the items in a generic order I would improve initially upon building a daily driver for optimal longevity- not power. And I did not give it much thought (I could probably change and add quite a few things if I put effort into it)
As a final thought I would say my only caution here is against useless noise. I have no problem with advanced exhaust components which improve efficiency, mileage, power, etc... any improvement is an improvement. No problems there. I only caution that increase noise without good cause is not an improvement, and any "improvements" made to exhaust systems might be negated down the road by further engine mods (you might want to make a plan for the engine/drivetrain first, at the least). There are already a bunch of 3800lb, noisy, sub 500 horsepower cars on the road, adding another one to the road isn't special or unique.
Proper intake-driven PCV system will always reduce power some percentage. This is because the pressure drop behind the air filter directly drives WOT pcv action- it takes more air from the crankcase (contaminated air) as the filter becomes more clogged and pcv action improves. In other words, the better the PCV system is working during WOT, the more contaminated air the engine ingests (which results with cleaner engine oil, a fair trade in the eyes of OEM manufacturers).
I did not make the list as a power-improvement list, I made it to be a generic engine/daily driver longevity list. Those are the items in a generic order I would improve initially upon building a daily driver for optimal longevity- not power. And I did not give it much thought (I could probably change and add quite a few things if I put effort into it)
As a final thought I would say my only caution here is against useless noise. I have no problem with advanced exhaust components which improve efficiency, mileage, power, etc... any improvement is an improvement. No problems there. I only caution that increase noise without good cause is not an improvement, and any "improvements" made to exhaust systems might be negated down the road by further engine mods (you might want to make a plan for the engine/drivetrain first, at the least). There are already a bunch of 3800lb, noisy, sub 500 horsepower cars on the road, adding another one to the road isn't special or unique.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 34,604
Likes: 2,507
From: Schiller Park, ILL Member: #317
No need to thank me, you brought it up first.
So it seems that you're posting in the wrong thread then. I'm quite sure this one was about power gains via exhaust flow improvements. If not, then I must've missed a memo. 
We can definitely agree on the bolded part.
Please don't tease me. If you're going to say this, you'd better mean it.
Purely subjective, as with all "cosmetic" modifications (this being one of which you include in that group.)
Very little in this hobby is special or unique, at least for very long. Things that work, things that deliver results which are desirable to those looking for such results, those items tend to become quite common (this includes turbos.) If the goal is to be special, then by all means start your next project car by doing comprehensive modifications to the PCV system for absolute maximum engine longevity. Much fun will be had, I'm sure.
Please don't tease me. If you're going to say this, you'd better mean it.
Very little in this hobby is special or unique, at least for very long. Things that work, things that deliver results which are desirable to those looking for such results, those items tend to become quite common (this includes turbos.) If the goal is to be special, then by all means start your next project car by doing comprehensive modifications to the PCV system for absolute maximum engine longevity. Much fun will be had, I'm sure.
Banned
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Posts: 611
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TECH Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,798
Likes: 16
From: St.Charles MO
I think some of my definitions and root beliefs are being mis-interpreted. Which I expected (I can't very well type all of that stuff it would take a year) but cannot do much about because of length. I do not mind the "hate" as I consider it a therapy for individuals learning when using a forum (it gets the mind "going").
First, I do not consider headers as an "loud exhaust system". If an engine can be DRIVING, down the street, or down a strip, safely, it must have some form of header (I use the term loosely to indicate the valves are protected), that much is non-negotiable. I never meant you should not install a header or high quality associated parts (like a "y" pipe if necessary) to keep the exhaust valves safe and provide some form of velocity induced cylinder scavenging. In a daily driver this could improve economy AND power, very useful and easy to change parts like this for All engines, whether NA or FI would benefit from that. Because it is a necessity, I do not consider it as "changing" anything with respect to noise (the engine needs to run safely, period). In other words, if you change out a stock manifold for a high performance header, you aren't "changing" the exhaust system to be louder necessarily. You are merely updating or improving the situation with a bolt-on part that is easy to remove also (very nice to use that kind of part). My initial post of "do exhaust last" applies to this in only one way: If future mods outgrow the header or y-pipe you just installed, you maybe should have waited (caution and planning is sometimes rewarding).
moving on.
Second, I never said to NOT install an exhaust system. I only said I would leave it for last as a cosmetic issue in many cases once everything else is setup (noise is cosmetic. You dont need noise to go 'fast'). I would personally start with around the intake air filter. Then the PCV system is very important, then intake cold air ducting. Then focus on the engine, h/c/i the usual.
Second, I never said to NOT install an exhaust system. I only said I would leave it for last as a cosmetic issue in many cases once everything else is setup (noise is cosmetic. You dont need noise to go 'fast'). I would personally start with around the intake air filter. Then the PCV system is very important, then intake cold air ducting. Then focus on the engine, h/c/i the usual.
Also on your "you don't need noise to go fast" rant, a large cam will increase noise WAY more than a catback. If by saying "exhaust" you mean "catback", then you need to specifically say catback. Exhaust includes the whole system.
Somehwere in there you address the trans, suspension, wheels, differential, drivetrain overall. Then finally the exhaust 'system' would be modified to meet the goal of the engine. A high quality header can be installed at any point, especially if you are sure you will never outgrow the one you selected (lifetime bolt on parts go in at any time). Its like lego pieces that snap together, sometimes you can snap the wrong piece into place if you don't have an overall goal or plan in mind for the finished product.
Also depending on what your build goal is, you may not have to touch the suspension, trans, wheels or diff or anything drivetrain.
First, I am only being accurate when I say racing is strictly for the race track. We all like to drive fast on the street (my car is the epitome of this idea) but it is illegal to discuss on a forum openly in some situations (I know some people who wont be going to certain schools because of this). Basically, if you are buying pre-made parts and not manufacturing your own, paying out of pocket, you are not really racing anything except your own personal bank account. To me, the less you spent to go faster, is the real winner. For example, if you have a 500 horsepower 2800lbs bullet proof 93 octane daily driver with at least 25mpg which might achieve 50,000 miles out of a $400 engine. Can you go faster and farther for less? The race is on.
Which leads to the original question: if you were building an NA LS1 (let just say you have a goal for 400rwhp) for just street cruising and occasional test and tune drag strip passes (no classes, no restrictions - don't make excuses) would you replace the stock exhaust? (this includes the stock manifolds, so if you replace the stock manifolds then you DID replace the stock exhaust).
This is a very simple question, I don't need a paragraph about engines in space or bank accounts or PCV systems.