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Another e85 question

Old 12-07-2017, 12:35 PM
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Default Another e85 question

So I've been hanging out here alot and over on the bullet as well, trying to scrounge up as much solid info as I can on using corn with spray. I'm from Iowa and that means I can't get away from e85 even if I try. There is always somewhere I can get e85. With that being said, I would love to run it all the time in my car.

Its a very budget built foxbody with a 5.3
LS1 cam/LS6 springs
Stock Heads
Thinner head gaskets bump comp. to 9.8:1
Stock ls3 exhaust manifolds
Stock truck intake.
36lb injectors tuned on HP tuners by myself
I want to throw 150 or 175 at it, pulling from the rail.

Alot of the threads I find with the search date back to 2010 or older and usually end up being a pissing match between e85 and race gas, or how you need race gas in a standalone, etc etc. And alot of the threads speak of how little research is out there. Well, its been 7 years and I'm hoping there is someone out there that can share some info and their best results.

I'm wanting to know what you guys have found as safe AFR and also best power AFR

How much timing do you usually pull on the hit. I've read some guys recommend pulling the same as on pumpgas...some recommend just making it ruch with a cold plug and not yanking any timing out. Others say to use a hot plug and a rich tuneup and pull a small amount of timing.

I know each setup is different and will like different things, but I'm hoping a bunch of guys will share their personal experience and I can use that knowledge to keep my **** from melting down. I will be reading plugs!!
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:43 PM
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You don't HAVE to run a stand alone. I think for what you're looking to do, E85 will be fine. As always, be sure to test it out of the pump. My main question is what fuel pump are you using? Make sure you've got enough pump to support the amount of power you're looking to run with the bottle on. For fueling, if it is one of our systems, we can give you recommendations as to what jets to run on the fuel side. As far as timing, always pull timing on your initial runs. Reading the spark plugs will tell you where to go from there. I always run the same heat range plug as you would with gas. Let me know if you have any other questions.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:41 PM
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Has an aeromotive 340 pump. Should be plenty I would think.

What lambda value do you usually shoot for to start? .75 and lean it out from there?
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:21 AM
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I don't see anything wrong with starting around .75 and reading plugs from there. That should give you a safe, rich starting point.
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Old 12-09-2017, 12:02 PM
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Default Fuel Flow ???

Hi, your 36 .lbs injectors could be too small with 400HP 100% duty cycle. (E-85)
I am not sure with your "pull from rail" comment ?

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Old 12-09-2017, 01:12 PM
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At 100% duty cycle the injectors should handle 400 tire, on their own. But I'm not using them for the nitrous fueling so that doesn't really matter as they will be only supporting about 280 NA horsepower. I will be using a wet kit and getting the fuel for the wet kit right off the fuel rail hence "pulling from the rail" and the 340 pump should be more than enough to supply the motor and lots more spray then I'll ever shove through this thing.

I know for a fact the injectors will be fine in this setup and I might even use them for a 50 shot dry "oh **** he's out on me half a car" and they will handle that fine too.

I'm mainly looking for info on the nitrous AFR and a place to start with timing.
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Old 12-09-2017, 02:06 PM
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Me too. I am currently upgrading my fuel system for corn. Just trying to get away from the 11$ a gallon race gas.
Keep us posted what you find out. I am 450 or so n/a to start than running 200 dry on top. Not really sure where to start afr wise.
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Old 12-09-2017, 03:03 PM
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I'll share whatever I learn come April (around when my local track re-opens)

If you find out something first let us know haha. Peeking at jetting charts, it seems like at 55psi it's only one or maybe 2 jet sizes up on fuel compared to gas (seems odd to me) so I'll probably start with a 50 and follow the jet chart, then slowly up the nitrous pill and see what the trend is between suggested gas jet and actual e85 jet.
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Old 12-14-2017, 10:31 PM
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100 duty cycle is pushing it. I would never run that high. 85% was a good number for me. remember e85 you will need about 30% percent more fuel. good e 85 fuel line, and filters and filters lol especially the first month. e85 will dissolve all the junk in your tank. get a good AFR gauge for your car as e85 is real hard to read, plugs will look brand new. timing marks will show on straps. love e85 for nitrous
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:27 AM
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Yep, I plan on changing filters ALOT for the first couple tanks. Since I'll be using a wet shot, the injectors should only have to supply motor, which I would be pleased to see make 300hp on its own. I think they should be capable of that way well under 80% duty.

Bowtie what do you typically like to see for AFR when you spray? How many degrees from NA do you usually pull?
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:34 PM
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I'm no nitrous guy but like you MaroonMonsterLS1 i've been looking into N2O and E85 alot, i'm building a car i have been wanting to put spray with e85 on a carb'd ls1 with 14:1 comp. the best e85 carb guy on the planet in my opinion says they pull no timing with e85 and spray and it loves it. reliable as well, they are not melting pistons or blowing up engines and he has been at this a long time. not sure on jetting etc. but i hope that helps you out in some way. not saying you couldnt start out pulling timing and work your way up to N/A timing just to be safe or make it easy on your nerves.
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by fbodyfreakls1 View Post
I'm no nitrous guy but like you MaroonMonsterLS1 i've been looking into N2O and E85 alot, i'm building a car i have been wanting to put spray with e85 on a carb'd ls1 with 14:1 comp. the best e85 carb guy on the planet in my opinion says they pull no timing with e85 and spray and it loves it. reliable as well, they are not melting pistons or blowing up engines and he has been at this a long time. not sure on jetting etc. but i hope that helps you out in some way. not saying you couldnt start out pulling timing and work your way up to N/A timing just to be safe or make it easy on your nerves.
I assume you're referring to mark sullens? I've read his stuff and his theory and I'm not sure I buy into the "no timing pulled" methodology I've seen him push all over the net. At least not to start, like he often recommends. I am still going to pull timing at first and work back towards safe. If safe ends up being the exact same as Naturally aspirated (which I just doubt...unless the fueling is off) then so be it. I think Mark can build a heck of a carb...but I don't want to risk my engine on his theory with nitrous
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Old 01-15-2018, 02:39 PM
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Disclaimer I have yet to try e85 and the juice....

Been looking around the net for some input. So far I think timing should be similar to race gas (in my case VP 110). But afr seems like most are liking 11 to 11.5 wot on corn. I think that's gonna be my starting tune.
I have tried to hire 3 tuners so far and none of them have gotten back to me. I am beginning to think e85 and nitrous is black magic.
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Old 01-15-2018, 02:49 PM
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Yes i am referring to Mark, although his field of expertise is carbs and not nitrous per say, he has been racing with e85 for along time and been very successful with it. i would defiantly start with timing pulled and work your way more aggressive. as long as he has been doing this i doubt he would be pushing a theory, i can only assume he has been racing his car and had others racing with n2o the same way to come to this confidence of no timing pulled. defiantly let us know what you find.
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Old 01-15-2018, 02:55 PM
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It just seems as though he is making e85 to be a "miracle fuel" and it does help him sell his product better.

e85 is great, and I plan to use it, but I don't see any way that I can take a N/A tuneup with Maximum power timing, and throw 150 at it, and not have to pull any timing. The increased cylinder temps and pressures just wouldn't seem to make sense that way. The flame can't and won't propagate at the same rate, no matter the fuel.

I'll share whatever I find, whether successful or I melt a set of pistons.
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MaroonMonsterLS1 View Post
It just seems as though he is making e85 to be a "miracle fuel" and it does help him sell his product better.

e85 is great, and I plan to use it, but I don't see any way that I can take a N/A tuneup with Maximum power timing, and throw 150 at it, and not have to pull any timing. The increased cylinder temps and pressures just wouldn't seem to make sense that way. The flame can't and won't propagate at the same rate, no matter the fuel.

I'll share whatever I find, whether successful or I melt a set of pistons.
You are correct. Cylinder pressure is cylinder pressure. We would never recommend for one of our customers to start out pulling zero timing, regardless of the fuel being used.
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Old 01-15-2018, 06:29 PM
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It still seems like there is not a lot of info out there for e85 and Nitrous I feel like I see more carb guys than efi guys. I have been looking into this and it’s been tough if you find good info or have good results keep us updated.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
You are correct. Cylinder pressure is cylinder pressure. We would never recommend for one of our customers to start out pulling zero timing, regardless of the fuel being used.
Thanks Brandon. I'm far from an expert, and my subject matter experience with corn and spray is obviously slim. But I did study combustion engineering at college in the past so I can think critically about something like this and at least try to wrap my head around it. Mark is very good with a carb, but for my engine, I wouldn't take his advice about nitrous.
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Old 01-16-2018, 01:48 PM
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i would never recommend starting that way either, i would defiantly start safe and slowly add timing. i however could see how it would be possible since you are starting with a way lower combustion temp before the nitrous comes into play with e85. temp is what causes the rings to expand and but ends and temp also causes melted pistons etc. so starting with that wayy lower temp in the cylinder i could see how if not N/A timing is possible at least way more aggressive timing could be possible.
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:45 PM
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More agressive timing for sure. That's what happens with any fuel less prone to autoignition. thats why "race gas" with its higher octane rating (resistance to knock) can take more timing than pump gas. Same is true for e85. However, if you have Max Torque timing naturally aspirated without knock, then that timing isn't going to be the same when you start to increase cylinder pressure and temperature with nitrous.

I could see NA pumpgas timing being close to Nitrous e85 timing maybe. But that's not what mark preaches. He preaches if you run 28 degrees of timing NA on corn, then spray 150 at it without going to a colder plug, and without retarding timing. I just don't buy into it...especially when I'm the one paying for pistons.

If I get through all of this and he is right...I will gladly tilt my hat and update the thread...if not...well...nobody will really be surprised I guess
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