If Tuning the VE table we remove the MAF then couldn't we....?
#22
heh, looks like i'm going to be taking a trip from chicago to monterey, ca this summer, so i'll take some logs in every state, and see what really changes. my money is on MAF changing, and as long as i adjust that, VE should stay inline without any changes.
#23
Originally Posted by Another_User
Actually, I don't think that is accurate. I have read a lot of stuff about this, and (including HPTuners help file) the MAF measured airflow above the "disable" is still filtered. It sounds to me like there are still corrections being performed on all MAF calculated airflow, even thought the airflow is entirely MAF based beyond the disable threshold. If that makes any sense? I wish gameover would respond to my post and give us some more info on dynamic airflow calculations...
MAP/TPS Airflow Filter: This filter is used to filter the MAF airmass in response to a MAP or TPS failure. It is also used to filter the MAF airmass when the engine RPM is greater than the High RPM Disable limit.
High RPM Disable: Above this RPM use filtered MAF airmass for airmass prediction calculations.
High RPM Hysteresis: Hysteresis subtracted from High RPM Disable to re-enable dynamic airmass calculation.
This is from the HPTuner help file. So, the only "filtering" done to the MAF signal is from the MAP/TPS airflow filter. Dynamic airmass calculation from the VE table is most definitely disabled. The only role the VE table plays in MAF operation above High RPM Disable is error checking.
#24
Originally Posted by P Mack
Theoretically a change in elevation should do nothing to your trims. Massflow takes density into account and so does the map.
Or am I misunderstanding?
#25
Doesn't matter. Speed density takes air density into account in the airmass calculation.
There are other things that could throw off your ltrims besides the airmass calculation, like the 91 octane used at higher altitudes, change in humidity which the pcm can't sense, and less backpressure on the exhaust due to less atmospheric pressure.
There are other things that could throw off your ltrims besides the airmass calculation, like the 91 octane used at higher altitudes, change in humidity which the pcm can't sense, and less backpressure on the exhaust due to less atmospheric pressure.
#26
Originally Posted by Silverhawk_02TA
Well, see if this makes sense:
MAP/TPS Airflow Filter: This filter is used to filter the MAF airmass in response to a MAP or TPS failure. It is also used to filter the MAF airmass when the engine RPM is greater than the High RPM Disable limit.
High RPM Disable: Above this RPM use filtered MAF airmass for airmass prediction calculations.
High RPM Hysteresis: Hysteresis subtracted from High RPM Disable to re-enable dynamic airmass calculation.
This is from the HPTuner help file. So, the only "filtering" done to the MAF signal is from the MAP/TPS airflow filter. Dynamic airmass calculation from the VE table is most definitely disabled. The only role the VE table plays in MAF operation above High RPM Disable is error checking.
MAP/TPS Airflow Filter: This filter is used to filter the MAF airmass in response to a MAP or TPS failure. It is also used to filter the MAF airmass when the engine RPM is greater than the High RPM Disable limit.
High RPM Disable: Above this RPM use filtered MAF airmass for airmass prediction calculations.
High RPM Hysteresis: Hysteresis subtracted from High RPM Disable to re-enable dynamic airmass calculation.
This is from the HPTuner help file. So, the only "filtering" done to the MAF signal is from the MAP/TPS airflow filter. Dynamic airmass calculation from the VE table is most definitely disabled. The only role the VE table plays in MAF operation above High RPM Disable is error checking.
#27
Well I just looked at a log and maf airflow and dynamic airflow are still different above 4000 rpm. But that doesn't necessarily mean the unfiltered maf airflow isn't just used instead of dynamic airflow up there does it?
What I mean to say is, is dynamic airflow the filtered airmass calc, or is it what gets filtered into the airmass calc?
What I mean to say is, is dynamic airflow the filtered airmass calc, or is it what gets filtered into the airmass calc?
#28
Originally Posted by Another_User
It sort of makes sense, but it doesn't really explain how it is filtered. Notice that the airflow above the disable is still filtered, and dynamic airflow is "MAF based". If it was MAF airflow, it would just be MAF airflow.
#29
Originally Posted by P Mack
Well I just looked at a log and maf airflow and dynamic airflow are still different above 4000 rpm. But that doesn't necessarily mean the unfiltered maf airflow isn't just used instead of dynamic airflow up there does it?
What I mean to say is, is dynamic airflow the filtered airmass calc, or is it what gets filtered into the airmass calc?
What I mean to say is, is dynamic airflow the filtered airmass calc, or is it what gets filtered into the airmass calc?
The filtered MAF airmass is the MAF airmass reading, filtered by data provided by the MAP and TPS sensors. This takes place above 4000 RPM, or in response to a MAP or TPS sensor failure.
#30
Originally Posted by P Mack
Doesn't matter. Speed density takes air density into account in the airmass calculation.
There are other things that could throw off your ltrims besides the airmass calculation, like the 91 octane used at higher altitudes, change in humidity which the pcm can't sense, and less backpressure on the exhaust due to less atmospheric pressure.
There are other things that could throw off your ltrims besides the airmass calculation, like the 91 octane used at higher altitudes, change in humidity which the pcm can't sense, and less backpressure on the exhaust due to less atmospheric pressure.
It's actually quite easy to see when you look at the mass flow calculation, as the PCM uses both MAP and IAT values, along with VE, to derive the mass flow.
#32
Originally Posted by RedHardSupra
if it's so easy to see, care to put up an equation? i think we could all use it
Mass flow = (VE * MAP * RPM * Displacement) / IAT
which is derived from this equation:
VE = ((mass flow * IAT / (MAP * RPM * Displacement))
So, the PCM is back-calculating mass flow from the VE value. Hence the importance of having a good VE table. It quite clearly shows that the PCM takes MAP and IAT into consideration.
#34
Originally Posted by M_T_0
Ok I follow all of this (I think) but my impression is that the SD mode does not deal with enviromental changes as well as the MAF/SD stock setup does, is this correct?
Thanks
More Than Zero
Thanks
More Than Zero
So was I.
However, it's all there in the mass flow equation. My own experience would seem to bear this out somewhat, as my trims don't really vary much due to temperature changes. But, they got shot all to hell by the altitude change. I think that maybe the relationship between MAP and actual barometric pressure (and hence air density) is a little more complicated than is immediately apparent.
#35
umm...so if you're calculating MAF values from ve/map/rpm/iat then this mean it's in SD mode, right?
and the second equation is used in MAF mode, and use the MAF sensor values for the mass flow portion of the equation?
and the second equation is used in MAF mode, and use the MAF sensor values for the mass flow portion of the equation?
#36
Originally Posted by P Mack
Doesn't matter. Speed density takes air density into account in the airmass calculation.
There are other things that could throw off your ltrims besides the airmass calculation, like the 91 octane used at higher altitudes, change in humidity which the pcm can't sense, and less backpressure on the exhaust due to less atmospheric pressure.
There are other things that could throw off your ltrims besides the airmass calculation, like the 91 octane used at higher altitudes, change in humidity which the pcm can't sense, and less backpressure on the exhaust due to less atmospheric pressure.
#37
Originally Posted by RedHardSupra
umm...so if you're calculating MAF values from ve/map/rpm/iat then this mean it's in SD mode, right?
and the second equation is used in MAF mode, and use the MAF sensor values for the mass flow portion of the equation?
and the second equation is used in MAF mode, and use the MAF sensor values for the mass flow portion of the equation?
The first equation is merely the second rearranged to more easily show how the PCM does this back-calculation.
#38
I live at 5600' elevation and frequently go down to ~ 1200' elevation to the track. After a day of tuning, I finally got all my LTFTs in the -2 range, car runs great. From what I've read here, going down to 1200' will cause my LTFTs go to positive quite a bit. This makes sense due to the increased barometric pressure, but does the VE of the engine really change? Would MAF scaling take care of the pressure differential?
The oxygen content of the air shouldn't change much between the two elevations, so I wouldn't think the VE of the engine would change much per part of air. Shouldn't the MAF (using the maf table and IAT) take into account the density of the air?
I understand that there is more oxygen at lower elevations, but there is also more air. This is where I'm confused. Can someone give some insight into how the PCM deals with this?
The oxygen content of the air shouldn't change much between the two elevations, so I wouldn't think the VE of the engine would change much per part of air. Shouldn't the MAF (using the maf table and IAT) take into account the density of the air?
I understand that there is more oxygen at lower elevations, but there is also more air. This is where I'm confused. Can someone give some insight into how the PCM deals with this?
#39
Originally Posted by 97bowtie
IThis makes sense due to the increased barometric pressure
Originally Posted by 97bowtie
but does the VE of the engine really change? Would MAF scaling take care of the pressure differential?
Originally Posted by 97bowtie
The oxygen content of the air shouldn't change much between the two elevations, so I wouldn't think the VE of the engine would change much per part of air.
Originally Posted by 97bowtie
Shouldn't the MAF (using the maf table and IAT) take into account the density of the air? .
Originally Posted by 97bowtie
I understand that there is more oxygen at lower elevations, but there is also more air. This is where I'm confused. Can someone give some insight into how the PCM deals with this?
#40
Originally Posted by P Mack
The pcm is concerned with air/fuel ratio, not necessarily oxygen/fuel ratio although they're related. So all the pcm is worried about is calculating how much air is going into the cylinders. To do that it can use massflow directly from the maf, or it can calculate massflow by multiplying volume flow (which comes from ve) times density (which comes from air temp and pressure via the ideal gas law). density = Pressure/(temp * gas constant)
Guess I'll just have to do some logging at 1200' and see how the LTrims are effected.