am I more lean that I should be?
am I more lean that I should be? I'm new to the tuning world, and am tryign to understand it, I've taken a number of baseline autotap runs, but finally decided to start dialing in the maft earlier today. I only made one adjustment, and thats 5% rich at base, and 2% rich at WOT (I know i shouldnt have messed with the WOT, im turning it back tomarrow).
anyway, here is what I ended up with
<img src="http://www.big-shoe.net/images/atap2.jpg" alt=" - " />
what I did is copied my info from the windows atap log I made into the c5 template.
if anyone cares, here is the comma deliminated file: http://www.big-shoe.net/5-231.csv
and here is the file I made when I copied that info to the c5 template http://www.big-shoe.net/5rich.xls
I'm pretty sure I'm logging the same things the c5 file is logging (so many similar sounding parameters in autotap).
What worries me is this, I'm +5% rich and it looks like I am very lean (i think), my car is a bolt on car, with the only engine mods being lid/k&n/bg ramair/pace VV maf/asp pully. I do have quite a bit of KR, i've read up to 6 degrees before, I dont know if its associated with my pully, since I havent ataped it with the stock pully.
Does this sound right for a car with this few mods? should I keep richening it? Also, shouldnt the KR calm down as I richen the mixture? How worried should I be about the amount of KR I have?
sorry for all the ?'s I've been reading up a little, and these seem a little unclear to me.
Miki
<small>[ May 24, 2002, 02:14 AM: Message edited by: bigshoe ]</small>
anyway, here is what I ended up with
<img src="http://www.big-shoe.net/images/atap2.jpg" alt=" - " />
what I did is copied my info from the windows atap log I made into the c5 template.
if anyone cares, here is the comma deliminated file: http://www.big-shoe.net/5-231.csv
and here is the file I made when I copied that info to the c5 template http://www.big-shoe.net/5rich.xls
I'm pretty sure I'm logging the same things the c5 file is logging (so many similar sounding parameters in autotap).
What worries me is this, I'm +5% rich and it looks like I am very lean (i think), my car is a bolt on car, with the only engine mods being lid/k&n/bg ramair/pace VV maf/asp pully. I do have quite a bit of KR, i've read up to 6 degrees before, I dont know if its associated with my pully, since I havent ataped it with the stock pully.
Does this sound right for a car with this few mods? should I keep richening it? Also, shouldnt the KR calm down as I richen the mixture? How worried should I be about the amount of KR I have?
sorry for all the ?'s I've been reading up a little, and these seem a little unclear to me.
Miki
<small>[ May 24, 2002, 02:14 AM: Message edited by: bigshoe ]</small>
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
From: Hickory, NC
Re: am I more lean that I should be? Miki:
According to your data you're very lean @ WOT. Having an average O2 (from both banks) of .841 indicates a highly "lean" condition. Also, your L-trims @ idle with an average of 12.4 clearly indicates a lean condition at idle as well. I've got a ton of experience tuning with the MAFT because I severly screwed up in the beginning. With the help of John Skiba, of PACE parts, I was able to dial it in. Because of your lean condition you're also showing unwanted Knock Retard over 4 degrees. This is hurting performance somewhat. After spending lot's of time with my MAFT, here is an example of my data: At idle, my L-trims are exactly "0" on both banks (I got lucky), my O2's continually range from .886 to .892 @ WOT. Although I'm now showing up to 3.3 degrees of KR on occassion, I have a belt tensioner issue I haven't addressed. It's causing some vibrations that are signaling the knock sensors (no big deal). Hope you get it figured out. BTW, a "general" rule of thumb is to have your WOT O2 averages between .880 and .910.
According to your data you're very lean @ WOT. Having an average O2 (from both banks) of .841 indicates a highly "lean" condition. Also, your L-trims @ idle with an average of 12.4 clearly indicates a lean condition at idle as well. I've got a ton of experience tuning with the MAFT because I severly screwed up in the beginning. With the help of John Skiba, of PACE parts, I was able to dial it in. Because of your lean condition you're also showing unwanted Knock Retard over 4 degrees. This is hurting performance somewhat. After spending lot's of time with my MAFT, here is an example of my data: At idle, my L-trims are exactly "0" on both banks (I got lucky), my O2's continually range from .886 to .892 @ WOT. Although I'm now showing up to 3.3 degrees of KR on occassion, I have a belt tensioner issue I haven't addressed. It's causing some vibrations that are signaling the knock sensors (no big deal). Hope you get it figured out. BTW, a "general" rule of thumb is to have your WOT O2 averages between .880 and .910.
TECH Resident
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 754
Likes: 0
From: USA
Re: am I more lean that I should be? That Excal template your using is incomplete in what it should be going and is missing major functions that should be recorded like injector pulse width, MAP and Delievered torque, for without them your missing half the story.
That template makes wrong decisions as example they only consider knock over 3 degreesm well as you see below the knock is much more often, so much so that the PCM is dropping from the high octane timing table and your in the lower timing table to while in WOT your as low as 14 degrees !
Without injector pulse width cannot get the whole story but the way I analyze days your injectors are too small, your forcing the MAF signal so low that you only have 17 lbs/min air which also drives timing down.
If you drive via MAFT to go even richer, then MAF flow will decrease even more.
Here is how I analyze PCM traces :
<img src="http://teamzr1.com/temp/fbody.gif" alt=" - " />
Without delivered torque being recorded I cannot calculate flywheel or rear wheel HP and torque.
Also you MUST have at LEAST 1 hour driving time to allow PCM to re-calibrate good LTFT averages and WOT should NOT be adjusted until LTFT is set to where you want them for LTFT does effect WOT values.
<small>[ May 24, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Team ZR-1 ]</small>
That template makes wrong decisions as example they only consider knock over 3 degreesm well as you see below the knock is much more often, so much so that the PCM is dropping from the high octane timing table and your in the lower timing table to while in WOT your as low as 14 degrees !
Without injector pulse width cannot get the whole story but the way I analyze days your injectors are too small, your forcing the MAF signal so low that you only have 17 lbs/min air which also drives timing down.
If you drive via MAFT to go even richer, then MAF flow will decrease even more.
Here is how I analyze PCM traces :
<img src="http://teamzr1.com/temp/fbody.gif" alt=" - " />
Without delivered torque being recorded I cannot calculate flywheel or rear wheel HP and torque.
Also you MUST have at LEAST 1 hour driving time to allow PCM to re-calibrate good LTFT averages and WOT should NOT be adjusted until LTFT is set to where you want them for LTFT does effect WOT values.
<small>[ May 24, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Team ZR-1 ]</small>
Re: am I more lean that I should be? Thanks for the help guys, I probably will start over, but I felt I was already logging too much (updates are pretty slow), I should probably find out if i can run the dos version with my XP laptop, i thought dos programs dont run under 2000/xp easily- never really tried.
Team ZR-1, if you dont mind, can you email me the config file and template you use? miki@apk.net If not, no big deal. I like your template, lots of information (and much of it i dont understand yet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> ).
I have an m6, and when i tried calculating torque, it didnt measure 350.0 and didnt move, anyk other torque parameter didnt measure anything. and about HP..... that was all over the place, anywhere from a couple hp to 1300 at any given time, i didnt understand it, nor did i understand the "load" parameter, they just didnt make any sense to me.
I will autotap some more this weekend (i hope).
btw, I just ataped it on the way home from work (25mile drive mostly highway), and this is about 70 miles after I made the last change (+10%rich/0%WOT), and things are looking more like they are supposed to, my ltrims finally started settling, and looks like I am running better at WOT (but I think i only had 1 small run), the KR is back, but not as bad as originally
<img src="http://www.big-shoe.net/images/atap4.jpg" alt=" - " /> it was a lot colder when i made this run.
I'll keep messing with it as I get more time
THANKS EVERYONE!!
Team ZR-1, if you dont mind, can you email me the config file and template you use? miki@apk.net If not, no big deal. I like your template, lots of information (and much of it i dont understand yet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> ).
I have an m6, and when i tried calculating torque, it didnt measure 350.0 and didnt move, anyk other torque parameter didnt measure anything. and about HP..... that was all over the place, anywhere from a couple hp to 1300 at any given time, i didnt understand it, nor did i understand the "load" parameter, they just didnt make any sense to me.
I will autotap some more this weekend (i hope).
btw, I just ataped it on the way home from work (25mile drive mostly highway), and this is about 70 miles after I made the last change (+10%rich/0%WOT), and things are looking more like they are supposed to, my ltrims finally started settling, and looks like I am running better at WOT (but I think i only had 1 small run), the KR is back, but not as bad as originally
<img src="http://www.big-shoe.net/images/atap4.jpg" alt=" - " /> it was a lot colder when i made this run.
I'll keep messing with it as I get more time
THANKS EVERYONE!!
Re: am I more lean that I should be? Trent, thanks for the response, I just did another log at 10%rich base, 0%WOT, and here is what I got
<img src="http://www.big-shoe.net/images/atap3.jpg" alt=" - " />
here is the logfile http://www.big-shoe.net/10richbase.xls
I find it very odd that I add 5% more fuel, and I hardly knocked down my ltrims- do I have to drive around till the computer fully relearns the idle to see the whole effect? I thought it would see the biggest difference off the bat, and then relearn towards the what the pcm "thinks" it wants.
My ltrims only went down about "1" (10%rich) and I thouht they should move more, I think I will run out of maf translator by the time this thing is tuned!
On a VERY positive note, my KR went down dramatically, I only had 2 WOT runs, and none of them were over 3.5 degrees.
how long should I drive before I make another change? I've read 50 miles or so, but im just so lean, cant i just jump the gun and richen it some more- or is that really a bad idea?
<img src="http://www.big-shoe.net/images/atap3.jpg" alt=" - " />
here is the logfile http://www.big-shoe.net/10richbase.xls
I find it very odd that I add 5% more fuel, and I hardly knocked down my ltrims- do I have to drive around till the computer fully relearns the idle to see the whole effect? I thought it would see the biggest difference off the bat, and then relearn towards the what the pcm "thinks" it wants.
My ltrims only went down about "1" (10%rich) and I thouht they should move more, I think I will run out of maf translator by the time this thing is tuned!
On a VERY positive note, my KR went down dramatically, I only had 2 WOT runs, and none of them were over 3.5 degrees.
how long should I drive before I make another change? I've read 50 miles or so, but im just so lean, cant i just jump the gun and richen it some more- or is that really a bad idea?
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
From: Hickory, NC
Re: am I more lean that I should be? Miki...just a suggestion here. Go back and start over. It won't take too much time. It's very important that you don't mess with the WOT adjustment until you have your L-trims at idle as close to "0" as possible. Switch the WOT setting back to zero and monitor your L-trims at idle. Like you, I was gung-ho and excited in the beginning but, as others will tell you, tuning requires time. You mentioned some baseline runs but I didn't see the data. You definitely want to log your parameters "first" before you start tuning with the MAFT. I encourage you to drive your car and put some miles on her. It takes a good while for our PCM's to adjust to the new settings. I'll admit, I'm stumped as to how you went to +10% rich on the Base setting and back to zero(0) WOT and are still in the 11's for L-trims at idle. Are you sure you're not getting more air into the intake somehow? Your O2's are still wacky @ WOT as well. Just take your time and drive the car. Keep me informed, I'm interested in what you come up with.
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
From: Hickory, NC
Re: am I more lean that I should be? Miki...just a suggestion here. Go back and start over. It won't take too much time. It's very important that you don't mess with the WOT adjustment until you have your L-trims at idle as close to "0" as possible. Switch the WOT setting back to zero and monitor your L-trims at idle. Like you, I was gung-ho and excited in the beginning but, as others will tell you, tuning requires time. You mentioned some baseline runs but I didn't see the data. You definitely want to log your parameters "first" before you start tuning with the MAFT. I encourage you to drive your car and put some miles on her. It takes a good while for our PCM's to adjust to the new settings. I'll admit, I'm stumped as to how you went to +10% rich on the Base setting and back to zero(0) WOT and are still in the 11's for L-trims at idle. Are you sure you're not getting more air into the intake somehow? Your O2's are still wacky @ WOT as well. Just take your time and drive the car. Keep me informed, I'm interested in what you come up with.
