Ok what you are describing is navigating the software.

There are 3 issues I see when learning to tune EFI:

1) Learning the hardware functionality involved in the system
2) Learning the logic process of the PCM
3) Learning the software interface with the PCM

Of course no one system is the system is the same. But with this being an LS1 based site, it was implied that we would gear the discussion towards LSX based engines. For the LSX motors, #1 and #2 on my list are pretty universal b/w the setups. Anyway you look at it, knowing those things before hand, will make interfacing with the PCM and manipulating parameters a much more intuitive process. Learning how to use HPT vs EFI vs whatever else is all up to the user on their own time and capability. The thing I see often, is people playing with parameters with zero understanding of what is going on behind the scenes, only b/c they take what they read as truth for their personal setups, and then HEAVY duplication of questions asked. It's like my VP here at work: wants all the end results but has no idea what it takes to get there!

 

Very true.

FWIW, I counted my logs and tunes I've got my HP tuners folder.

It's over 100 for each.

The whole point of my topic was so that I understand better how it works. I ask a lot of questions, because I always want to know "why." Not just a "step 1, step 2, step 3, you're done," sorta thing.

 

i'm not pissed, i'm frustrated.
i have probably over 1500 posts across few boards, my site gets 30-70 hits a day, and we still get questions like 'is sd gonna make more power than maf' or 'i'm not gonna touch ve because i don't understand it and i've been tweaking ifr's, but you must fix my problem'. and then there's always my favorite 'i have a 408, afr 225, 270/.700+ cam, on a stock tune with stock injectors, and it doesn't wanna run, why?'

1. tuning is science. all science rules apply: check assumptions, keep units consistent, do one thing at a time, keep well documented logs, eliminate flukes by repetition, etc... yes, it is that boring!
2. stop asking questions you can find easily (stickies, other sites, books, friendly mechanic, etc). don't ask questions you can get an answer by a simple experiment. if you do an experiment, not only you will learn the software, the process, but you will also remember it for a long time. most people learn much better by doing then by being told.
3. good questions to be asked: ask about assumptions. ask about the process. don't ask what VE stands for, that's to be found in stickies/writeups. best questions are of the form "hey, i have tried x, y, z, and i get no changes, why?" or "i have fixed x, but now y is out of wack, how do i bring it back to normal without screwing up x again?' generally 'why' questions are way better then 'how' or 'what' as they show no effort or attempt of understanding, they just show off your impatience and ignorance of all the effort of the few that actually contribute.
4. most problems come NOT from software being hard to use, but from lack of understanding of concepts. lack of sensors knowledge is another popular one. read a book. then another. then another.
5. please please please read the instructions!!! you have no idea how many people ask me questions which I can answer by cutting and pasting instructions from my writeups/spreadsheets. i try to make them more readable and clearer if i see the same question being asked repeatiedly by many people. i am not a writer, i am not a teacher, and i am not a native english speaker, so unclarity (is that even a word?) happens.
6. get your hardware in perfect working order before you get to tuning, or you're gonna end up chasing your tail! most people try to learn tuning on some radical setups, that still have leaks and rattles. NOT a good start! tune a stocker, learn the process, make it easy on yourself, THEN put in some headers, see what changes, make apporiate changes.
7. you are learning, you can't possibly absorb it all in a week, so go slow and take your time. read when you can't do. do when you get bored or full of reading.
8. stop discouraging the few that contribute by making them feel like they're here to answer your '101' questions. we don't exactly get paid for it

<rant off>

 

I mostly agree with what you've said, and can understand the frustration.

But, to a couple points...

"don't ask questions you can get an answer by a simple experiment"

Why waste time potentially damaging your car if someone else has already experienced it? We should share the experience. Yeah, I could've logged for a while with PE with one setting and compare dynamic airflow to PE at another setting. And if they're different, it could be coincidence or another number of factors. Then spend a couple more hours sorting the data, changing, reprogramming, logging, etc.

Or, I spend 10 minutes posting a new topic, and another 5 reading the answer.

Which would most people prefer?

It's one thing to ask a question that could take 2 seconds to search, or 5 minutes reading a sticky topic.

But, what's frustrating to me is being criticized for asking a question, after spending multiple hours searching for and reading about to no avail. I dunno, maybe your were attacking the other guy who said something, who knows.......

". good questions to be asked: ask about assumptions. ask about the process. don't ask what VE stands for, that's to be found in stickies/writeups. best questions are of the form "hey, i have tried x, y, z, and i get no changes, why?" or "i have fixed x, but now y is out of wack, how do i bring it back to normal without screwing up x again?' generally 'why' questions are way better then 'how' or 'what' as they show no effort or attempt of understanding, they just show off your impatience and ignorance of all the effort of the few that actually contribute."

This just sounds like the difference between the noobies and the guys who are halfway through tuning. Maybe there should be two different forums. Basic, and advanced tuning. The basic forum could be filled with stickies, and then a bunch of topics and posts you can ignore easily.

 

I think the most important to keep in mind, is that this is a tech related site with many many resources. The database for this site is LOADED with years of excellent info on many different performance subjects, I think people owe it to themselves to take advantage of it and take advantage of the labor put forth by others who have invested a massive amount of time trying to relay this information in a presentable manner.

Daily, look at the 1st 25 threads on this forum and we will see a good handful of the same thing asked over and over and over. This shows laziness and a lack of true intent to go through a learning process. People say "when I search, it doensn't give me anything useful" but part of the reason why that is, is b/c this site is so huge now and a good contribution to that is all the multiple posts. It's like in the internal section when people continually ask "what is the best cam." Of course we will never be able to stop this, but coming to the forum with a different attitude of doing what you can to find the info as opposed to just demanding the info up front, honors all the history of this website, and also educates you better in the process. While you are looking for the answer to one question, you may stumble upon the answer to another you may have, or run into something else that piques your interest.

 

to add what txhorns said...
it's about signal to noise ratio--the people who know their stuff post their stuff once or twice. the newbies will ask 15 questions, often stemming from not understanding once concept, so you really just asked one question 15 times. well, with such ratio of simple repetitious crap vs good solid concise info, guess what's gonna come up in search--the popular one, not the smart one. that's why we have stickies, they're hand picked smart threads, not the same **** repeated over and over.
so by asking stupid questions, you're making the very search you're complaining about worse! cut it out!

 

Well, I can't argue with you guys there. The same questions do get asked a lot. And 90% of the topics probably wouldn't exist if people did a quick search first. I always do a search for the answer before posting. But....

The only "problems" I have with the search are that...
It only goes back till January
and
You can't search for things like "PE" and "VE." (too short of words). And hardly anyone says "power enrichment."

 

both very valid points, silverTA2002, maybe our newly elected mod should bring it up with the powers that be (since they hate me for hating on some of our sponsor tuning 'skillz') to fix such technical issues.

i don't really search much, i just keep browsing through all posts, i've gone back as far as 2002 sometimes to find some info. the info is out there, and the only thing between you and that knowledge is your impatience.

 

The search issue has been brought up but nothing's been done w/it Search only goes back to January (which sux *** because there's so much useful data here) ... I just raised the issue again so we'll see if we can get it to go back further

the PE and VE search terms I don't believe are feasible... would put alot of additional stress on the database

 

Could you imagine how many results a search for VE would get?

Speaking of that, I wonder how many times posts like this have cycled through on this site? Noobs getting mad about being told to search, veterans getting tired of answering the same questions, etc...

 

Also I learned a lot by getting away from here and i searched on the Internet. Not to say that there isnt a TON of good info here but there was a good bit on the net.

 

A true statement here

 

if bothers you that much to answer noob questions just move along...seriously. you'll cause yourself less stress and you won't come off as being an elitist snob.

thats true for tuning or cam selection or OMGZERS which FI is the best?

 

These forums aren't here to just soak up pointless thread after pointless thread. This is why our search does not function the way we'd like it to. Not only is it to avoid frustrations, but the bigger picture is to be able to provide free access to this site for all users. I don't do the number crunching, but if we ever get to a point where server space become more expensive than what this site generates to offset that cost, how willing would people to have to pay to access our library?

 

Do a search.

Maybe there should be a sticky for it. (threads about arguing between vets and noobs)

 

The only way I think it could work would be a "match exact terms" option on the search.

That way, it would pull up posts that say "ve" and not every word that has the letters "ve" in it.

Or, possibly allow a 2 letter search word if you search "topic title" only or something.

I dunno, just suggestions.

 

I've always been willing to kick in for the boards I frequent. That's never a problem.

 

Until the search function allows a user to go further than Jan-06 (will it ever?), everyone needs to be patient with repetitive questions from new users. This holds true especially for PCM tuning and diagnosis which is probably the most confusing and misunderstood component of a modern EFI performance vehicle.

For users not familiar with at least the basics of EFI theory, you need to start by reading available books out there. I still think Corvette Electronic Fuel Injection and Fuel Management is a great place to start. The author was involved with EFI since the 80's and worked closely with GM and the SAE during the formative years of EFI. It's specific to GM EFI and also includes LS1/LS6 information as well. Just don't expect a tuning 101 guide.

 

Isn´t this thread a little "out of line" now? split it or move it