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Wow...Thanks! That's very cool you scoured my log file like that!
I'd seen the 28d of timing but hadn't noticed that it pulled all the way back to 9d. That does seem bad.
So, if we assume that I do have knock sensors and for some reason the software isn't logging them, what should I do? I'm using the Android App that comes with the Bluetooth Adapter. It's seemed pretty capable until just now, but it also included a License Key for some PC software. I'll post on the ScanTool Forum to try to get more information about the Knock Sensor Logging.
Or, if for some reason, one of the 2 tuners that have worked on my ECM tuned them out, what would that mean? How should I proceed?
Or, most likely, I'm not asking the correct question here.
The Knock Sensors are under the Intake Manifold on this motor? I'll try to do a visual inspection to verify they're present and connected.
Also, I'll try to get by the exhaust shop that I've gotten a little trained to deal with me and see if we can find an exhaust leak. This truck passed a 'smoke test' performed by the lame shop that didn't bother to change my fuel filter with the fuel pump. Of course, at that time they were trying to NOT find a problem to prove to me this was all in my head. As opposed to actually finding the problem. Have I mentioned that they swapped the OBS pcm first thing and pronounced it fixed? You should have seen his face when I went over and completely disconnected that pcm while the truck was running and it just kept on idling. Kinda weird 'cause they're the ones that finished the install of that motor...The Wiring Harness has been gone through since then eliminating the 2nd (1st?) pcm.
Wow...Thanks! That's very cool you scoured my log file like that!
I'd seen the 28d of timing but hadn't noticed that it pulled all the way back to 9d. That does seem bad.
So, if we assume that I do have knock sensors and for some reason the software isn't logging them, what should I do? I'm using the Android App that comes with the Bluetooth Adapter. It's seemed pretty capable until just now, but it also included a License Key for some PC software. I'll post on the ScanTool Forum to try to get more information about the Knock Sensor Logging.
Or, if for some reason, one of the 2 tuners that have worked on my ECM tuned them out, what would that mean? How should I proceed?
Or, most likely, I'm not asking the correct question here.
The Knock Sensors are under the Intake Manifold on this motor? I'll try to do a visual inspection to verify they're present and connected.
Also, I'll try to get by the exhaust shop that I've gotten a little trained to deal with me and see if we can find an exhaust leak. This truck passed a 'smoke test' performed by the lame shop that didn't bother to change my fuel filter with the fuel pump. Of course, at that time they were trying to NOT find a problem to prove to me this was all in my head. As opposed to actually finding the problem. Have I mentioned that they swapped the OBS pcm first thing and pronounced it fixed? You should have seen his face when I went over and completely disconnected that pcm while the truck was running and it just kept on idling. Kinda weird 'cause they're the ones that finished the install of that motor...The Wiring Harness has been gone through since then eliminating the 2nd (1st?) pcm.
Any other suggestions on moving forward?
Thanks,
-Kyle
I don't think they are tuned out, lest timing wouldn't be being pulled like that right? Yes they are under the manifold, I think you have 2 of them. Aparently they are notorious for getting moisture on them and rusting to hell and failing, even being comepletely submerged in water! Here's 2 articles about it, and how to test them. The one does say the pcm could be bad and cause the issue as well. http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/193 and http://www.obd-codes.com/p0332 If you're sure all the ignition components are good, then I would be testing those knock sensors. And aparently that manifold is also notorious for leaking due to shitty gaskets, causing a lean condition and often times knock because of this. The one article covers this. So if you take it off to check the sensors, make sure you use the better gaskets and new knock sensor install method. I would test them out of curiousity, but would replace them regardless because they are fairly cheap, so why not just to eliminate that as a problem? Since this is a notorious problem area on the 5.3, looks like it's a good chance this could be your problem.
Kyle, I just want you to know I'm not saying this is your problem for sure, but things do seem to point that way. I'm doing my best to help, but I'm only able to offer advice, which is what I have been doing. I just don't want you to sink money in the truck per my advice and be upset if it doesn't fix the problem. With that being said, if you end up doing all that I pray it fixes the truck, lol. And Im sure you can find better prices if you shop around. For example, Rock Auto has the Delphi and AcDelco knock sensors for 30-40 each, not 75. Kinda hard to find em, it's under "emissions". I looked up a 02 silverado 1500 with the 5.3 btw; I wasn't sure what truck or car your engine was from. Also you may want to check anything and everything that could also cause knock, before ordering parts just to eliminate everything. Like you said, you don't want to throw money at it if you don't have to. Check out this article, it covers what things cause ignition knock. I know you said it was tuned for 87, but you may want to try running 89 in it just to eliminate that, as cheap gas can cause knock. Hell, maybe 91? Can you run 91 on the 87 tune? If you can I would try that over 89. You might also try seafoam or something like that to try and clean any carbon out. I'm really feelin like it's the intake and knock sensor issue the 5.3's have, but you could try the cheap stuff real quick before you tear it down. Anyways, here's that article. http://www.aa1car.com/library/spark_knock.htm
After reading that article, it sure does seem like there's a very good chance that the Knock Sensors are the issue. The GM Technical Bulletin is enough to convince, nearly.
I looked closer at the logs after you posted and, sure enough, timing does pull way back to 9 degrees when TPS gets higher.
I did notice that the Knock Sensors were able to be found for under $40. Does anybody have the part number for the bolts that seem to need to be replaced? And which gaskets? Definitely do the Valley Pan Gasket, too?
And the motor is (supposed to be) an '06, but the ECM is an '02. It looks like the part number is the same, but should I be real careful about which Knock Sensors? I'm pretty sure I learned that the AC Delcos are the way to go.
At least The Guy said he'd be able to get it completed in less than 1 day.
Judging by the pictures and the number of people that then reported that their motors ended up being in the same condition, it sure seems like, even if my Knock Sensors aren't trashed, this would still need to be done. Timing's not real good, though...
Probably won't drop it off until Monday night so he can do the work Tuesday.
These stupid Intake Manifold Bolts, which apparently have to be replaced for proper sealing every time they're removed, are $13 at the dealer! 10 are required!
These stupid Intake Manifold Bolts, which apparently have to be replaced for proper sealing every time they're removed, are $13 at the dealer! 10 are required!
Kyle, summit sells a set of 10 ARP bolts for $36!!!! ARP makes the best ****. I don't see in the picture the little crush washers or whatever they are, but I think it's because it's just a universal picture? I would just call em and make sure they are what you need. You never buy parts from the dealer unless you can't find it anywhere else! The bolts are something you should upgrade so I'd definately recommend the ARP's if they are the right bolts. And I don't think the valley cover has to come off so I don't believe you need to do anything with that. Just get knock sensors for an 06, because that is what's in it.
Kyle, summit sells a set of 10 ARP bolts for $36!!!! ARP makes the best ****. I don't see in the picture the little crush washers or whatever they are, but I think it's because it's just a universal picture? I would just call em and make sure they are what you need. You never buy parts from the dealer unless you can't find it anywhere else! The bolts are something you should upgrade so I'd definately recommend the ARP's if they are the right bolts. And I don't think the valley cover has to come off so I don't believe you need to do anything with that. Just get knock sensors for an 06, because that is what's in it.
The Guy at he the swap-friendly shop suggested changing the Vally Pan gasket at the same time, but after seeing that swap thread and watching a couple YouTube Videos, maybe it's best to not.
I ordered all those parts this morning.
I looked at the choices at Summit, but couldn't be for sure they were correct, so I ended up ordering 2 5-packs of the AC Delcos from MegaGiantGMParts (or something like that...) ~$43 to the door.
I ordered what else I could from RockAuto. $45 for the AC Delco Knock Sensors. $45 for the Fel Pro Intake Gasket. The Valley Pan Gasket was only $7, so I ordered it, too.
There wasn't a single AdvanceAuto that had the Knock Sensor Harness, except for the closest one to me...$33...
The (lame) shop that did the fuel pump agreed to do the Knock Sensors swap for $200. Another shop, that I've been considering trying out, quoted me their (looked it up on the computer) regular rate of $220...and then there's the $300 quote from The Guy who's supposed to do good work on this kind of job as recommended by LS1Tech/Texas Forum...decisions, decisions. The RockAuto shipment isn't expected before Tuesday...
Anybody got any input?
Can we start an argument about sealing the Knock Sensor Grommets? One thread had somebody RTV'ing the underside of the grommets to seal them up from water better. He put some RTV on the Wire Hole, too. Seems like a fine idea to me...
I think I noticed when I fired it up cold that it was idling much smoother. I think.
I thought I'd been noticing that my STFT's were mostly +5 before the repair and now I nearly never see any STFT's in the +'s. I reviewed some logs from before the service and maybe that's not supported...
If STFT's did switch from being mostly+'s to being mostly -'s, what would that mean? The Intake Manifold was leaking and now that's better? Maybe that I've still got an exhaust leak? I sure do wish I could figure out how to see Knock on this ECM...wouldn't an exhaust leak cause Knock Sensor readings?
It's still not running really good. Asleep off the line still.
Timing maybe isn't going as low, but still seems to not stay advanced under heavy throttle.
I'm running out of ideas...
I've attached more log files. I think I found some PID's that were not initiall y available, but can't determine if my ECM should be able to read Knock PID's or not. It's not now, for sure...
The last log from an hour or so ago had a couple WOT's done on it. The log from 3/29 around 2:30pm was the 1st after the service. The 3/29_7:45am should have been the last one before the service.
The last log also had several minutes of idling in the driveway while I fussed with the software and tried to see if I could get more PID's to work. I noticed the timing seemed to retard just sitting there.
Somebody else needs to chime in here. I'm about to pull my hair out and it's not even my truck lol. Whats up with the new log? I looked at the last one and all the numbers seem to match now, no variance. Like when you go full throttle for a few seconds it says your rpm stays the same, along with everything else? What the hell? And yah it's weird your timing looked great at first cause when you first went full throttle in the last log, the timing was 25, then later on when you go full throttle its at like 14??? Somethings not right. I know the ecu CAN go bad. Sigh. Torque converter work right? Does it stall up like it should? I doubt that's it though since you cleary have timing issues. Yes, exhaust leak can cause false knock btw. And carbon buildup, and all that other crap that it said in those links.
I activated a whole bunch of PID's that I'd de-selected to see if I'd turned off something I needed. I think it may have overloaded the 'Droid. It was kinda freezing up, it seemed like. Still trying to figure out if I can log Knock PID's or not...Does ANYBODY know if the 411 ECM will report Knock? And the PID and Formula?
What else would cause these symptoms? If I have a list of causes, I can try to eliminate them.
It's definitely frustrating! And expensive...
Thanks,
-Kyle
Last edited by kpeters59; 03-31-2016 at 05:06 PM.
Reason: Typo
If you look at the three log files, your intake temps go through the roof. First log they start out around 156 and climb over 170. Second log they are up and down. What intake setup are you using?
This CAI was carefully considered the entire 25 minutes I went through what was available...
It's mostly a Hummer CAI.
Today, I had 2 extended stops and the temperature in Houston today got to at least 89! I sat for more than 25 minutes at least twice today, so IAT's were probably skewed from that. Although the setup is currently not ideal, I think under more typical conditions, it's not quite so extreme...I mean, how could this get heat saturated?:
Seriously, I have this wild idea that I'll be able to modify the stock CAI box to hold the Air Filter and cleverly use a couple 60-degree fittings and connect it to that (oversized) 4" tube.
Well for one you get heat soak because that is a short ram intake, not a cold air intake. It is inside the engine bay, not under or away from it. Another reason is because it is a metal pipe, which holds heat. This is why some guys build the intake tubing entirely from the rubber intake piping (like your elbow) so it retains less heat. Regardless though, your timing is still effed up, regardless of what the intake temp reads, so imho the two are not related. Now Kyle, I looked at those 3 logs and I see it still pulls timing like a **** whenever you are above roughly 24% throttle but under 3k, just like before. But, whenever your revs are over 3k the timing is up in the 20's like it should be when you are at say 40% throttle or more. So finally whenever you actually stay in it long enough and the revs climb enough it is actually running right. So you can see in the logs the timing should be in the 20's when you are heavier on the throttle, yet at roughly 2200 rpm and under its pulls timing, which is why it has no power down low. I'm sure by now you know this, but I just wanted to clarify. SO, that confirms that the timing is your issue with the no low end power problem. Now, why is the timing being pulled is the question. Like I said earlier, you either have detonation (knock) which is why it's being pulled, OR you are getting false knock. So what causes false knock then? Well as we discovered the 5.3 has issues with the knock sensors and can cause false knock, and so you replaced them and still have the issue. Damn it! Anyways, so what else then causes false knock? The computer could be faulty, but very unlikely. The wiring or harness(s) that run the knock sensors could be faulty or damaged, but also unlikely. Loud exhaust or exhaust leaks are probably the most common cause of false knock, so take a GOOD look. Specifcally look for soot or "carbon" around where the headers/manifold bolt to the heads. If you find any, (leak) this can definately cause a false knock. But Kyle, please try this trick first as I mentioned before, (but in less detail). Run your tank low and then fill up with some 91-93 premium fuel. This won't hurt the truck (did some research). Basically when you tune for 87 instead of 91-93, they just set the timing lower. It won't hurt to run 93 on a 87 tune; you just wont see a power gain from the better fuel. I know you said it was an 87 tune, but just humor me brother. And this will help in the process of elimination for you; here's how. If you're getting knock from nothing else but TOO MUCH TIMING, then raising the octane level will eliminate the knock! Cool huh? I've seen up to 28.5* of timing on your logs, but you run 87. 28.5 to me almost seems like it should be running 93, not 87. And I did a quick search and some guys running 93 in their 5.3 recommended 28* of timing when tuning for 93, not 87. Just humor me and run it empty and then put several gallons of 93 in it, see what happens. If you are getting FALSE knock then this should not help. BUT, if you actually are getting REAL knock, then it SHOULD dissapear with premium fuel. SO, this is a great way to test if you are getting real knock or false. I'm sorry I just learned this, or else I would have mentioned it earlier. This is part of the reason I like helping people, because sometimes I learn as well. So if somehow your tune went wacky and you are just getiing too much timing (which looks possible) then the 93 should clear it up and you can go from there. Please try this! It should at least confirm whether or not you have falso knock or real knock, and we can go from there. Runs better = real knock. Runs same = false knock. Run it as low as you comfortably can, then fill it with 93 if available. You want a good fullish tank of it to flush out the 87, else the 87 will dillute your 93 and make it more like 89.
Edit:...I forgot to add, I dumped 26+ gallons of 93 into my 30 gallon gas tank when I picked it from the Knock Sensor 'repair'...
Did I already say I was going to go by 'my' exhaust shop? I haven't done that yet. I'll see if I can get that done over the weekend or Monday.
It is seeming to me that the sound does seem like there might be a leak. It sounds 'loose'. It's hard to tell that way, because the exhaust is plenty loud.
The Air Filter for my 'CAI' is actually sitting right at the location where the Factory CAI box attached to the Fender to pull in outside air. You can see the hole in the fender in the Air Filter closeup. Since it doesn't line up quite right enough to actually go in the box, I'm stuck with this for now. I am fairly hopeful that I'll be able to modify the original (beautiful, black, plastic) box to hold the Air Filter with MAF attached outside and feed the Air Tube. Hopefully. There's not a big selection of CAI's for OBS LSx swaps available, and the factory box is actually drawing air from outside through the fender.
Still hunting for the Knock PID's and Formula's for the 411 ECM. This info didn't provide any data when added to the ScanTool software:
Since the PID came from another LS1Techer with a 411 and HPTuners, I'm confident of the PID number. I just haven't been able to determine if that formula is correct, which apparently it is not.
03-23-2016, 08:28 AM
And Im sure you can find better prices if you shop around. For example, Rock Auto has the Delphi and AcDelco knock sensors for 30-40 each, not 75. Kinda hard to find em, it's under "emissions". I looked up a 02 silverado 1500 with the 5.3 btw; I wasn't sure what truck or car your engine was from. Also you may want to check anything and everything that could also cause knock, before ordering parts just to eliminate everything. Like you said, you don't want to throw money at it if you don't have to. Check out this article, it covers what things cause ignition knock. I know you said it was tuned for 87, but you may want to try running 89 in it just to eliminate that, as cheap gas can cause knock. Hell, maybe 91? Can you run 91 on the 87 tune? If you can I would try that over 89. You might also try seafoam or something like that to try and clean any carbon out. I'm really feelin like it's the intake and knock sensor issue the 5.3's have, but you could try the cheap stuff real quick before you tear it down. Anyways, here's that article. http://www.aa1car.com/library/spark_knock.htm 
Damn it! Anyways, so what else then causes false knock? The computer could be faulty, but very unlikely. The wiring or harness(s) that run the knock sensors could be faulty or damaged, but also unlikely. Loud exhaust or exhaust leaks are probably the most common cause of false knock, so take a GOOD look. Specifcally look for soot or "carbon" around where the headers/manifold bolt to the heads. If you find any, (leak) this can definately cause a false knock. But Kyle, please try this trick first as I mentioned before, (but in less detail). Run your tank low and then fill up with some 91-93 premium fuel. This won't hurt the truck (did some research). Basically when you tune for 87 instead of 91-93, they just set the timing lower. It won't hurt to run 93 on a 87 tune; you just wont see a power gain from the better fuel. I know you said it was an 87 tune, but just humor me brother. And this will help in the process of elimination for you; here's how. If you're getting knock from nothing else but TOO MUCH TIMING, then raising the octane level will eliminate the knock! Cool huh? I've seen up to 28.5* of timing on your logs, but you run 87. 28.5 to me almost seems like it should be running 93, not 87. And I did a quick search and some guys running 93 in their 5.3 recommended 28* of timing when tuning for 93, not 87. Just humor me and run it empty and then put several gallons of 93 in it, see what happens. If you are getting FALSE knock then this should not help. BUT, if you actually are getting REAL knock, then it SHOULD dissapear with premium fuel. SO, this is a great way to test if you are getting real knock or false. I'm sorry I just learned this, or else I would have mentioned it earlier. This is part of the reason I like helping people, because sometimes I learn as well. So if somehow your tune went wacky and you are just getiing too much timing (which looks possible) then the 93 should clear it up and you can go from there. Please try this! It should at least confirm whether or not you have falso knock or real knock, and we can go from there. Runs better = real knock. Runs same = false knock. Run it as low as you comfortably can, then fill it with 93 if available. You want a good fullish tank of it to flush out the 87, else the 87 will dillute your 93 and make it more like 89.