Snapped strange axle in 2 Midwest chasing 9 inch
08-07-2017, 03:25 PM
#23
So after digging into this a little more it appears this is a second hand rearend that was assembled by someone else with a mix match of parts in it from different vendors.
I would defiantly say go back through the install and make sure it is put together correctly.
I would defiantly say go back through the install and make sure it is put together correctly.
08-07-2017, 03:31 PM
#24
If the vehicle isn't hooking it is always best to abort and save parts for another pass.
08-08-2017, 01:22 AM
#25
The problem we see today with the manual vehicles is the vehicle is spinning the tires during launch and staying in the pass. This will of course turn into some issues generally breaking parts.
If the vehicle isn't hooking it is always best to abort and save parts for another pass.
If the vehicle isn't hooking it is always best to abort and save parts for another pass.
Just throwing this out there- OST has a customer's full weight 6spd IRS Challenger in the 9.80’s using the ClutchTamer. The key is being able to dial back the excessively harsh engagement that comes with a clutch that can handle 1000+hp.
08-08-2017, 12:06 PM
#26
Torsional Fatigue Failure - Identification, Diagnosis and Prevention
https://reliabilityweb.com/articles/...and_prevention
https://www.reliability.com/industry.../article28.pdf
https://reliabilityweb.com/articles/...and_prevention
https://www.reliability.com/industry.../article28.pdf
Last edited by 1 FMF; 08-08-2017 at 12:19 PM.
08-09-2017, 08:14 AM
#27
OP's engine isn't making enough torque to break a 35 spl axle on it's own, it's getting help from the clutch. It's never a good idea to use a clutch that has more capacity than you need, unless you have a way to buffer the excessively harsh engagement that comes with it.
With 440rwhp and a pair of 28x10.5's, any spinning or wheel hop problems will likely go away when the clutch gets dialed back.
Just throwing this out there- OST has a customer's full weight 6spd IRS Challenger in the 9.80’s using the ClutchTamer. The key is being able to dial back the excessively harsh engagement that comes with a clutch that can handle 1000+hp.
With 440rwhp and a pair of 28x10.5's, any spinning or wheel hop problems will likely go away when the clutch gets dialed back.
Just throwing this out there- OST has a customer's full weight 6spd IRS Challenger in the 9.80’s using the ClutchTamer. The key is being able to dial back the excessively harsh engagement that comes with a clutch that can handle 1000+hp.
I think the clutch tamer makes sense for several reasons but here's the thing - can it work with an aggressive clutch that isn't really designed to slip? In particular I'm referring to very popular around here Monster Stage 3. I've yet to install mine but do know that slipping this clutch will cause it to begin to chatter. That's with normal driving, while trying to use it like a normal clutch. Now throw in a 5 or 6 thousand RPM clutch dump, dead hooking--- the clutch tamer is going to allow the clutch to slip a LOT more than just taking off from a typical stop light.
So is the clutch tamer compatible with a clutch like this?
08-09-2017, 10:50 AM
#28
Torque capacity and thermal capacity are two different things when it comes to clutches. Torque capacity is basically how much torque a clutch can handle before it begins to slip. Thermal capacity basically determines how long it can slip before reaching a critical temp. Two "comparable" clutches might have identical torque capacities, but a lightweight assembly has less mass and will generally reach it's critical temp quicker than a heavier clutch. The Monster Level 3 isn't a lightweight, it has quite a bit of capacity to be slipped. If you ask Monster though, i'm pretty sure they will recommend against it.
Keep in mind that the ClutchTamer has two basic adjustments. The inner adjustment allows you to vary how hard the clutch initially "hits", the outer delay adjustment allows you to separately vary how long the clutch slips beyond the hit. If you are not comfortable with long duration slipping, it's easy to dial it back.
Here's something I wrote up last nite for another forum, it kind of gives you an idea of how much slipping is actually required to reach a certain performance goal...
Lots of variables in choosing a clutch.
First you should probably figure out how long you want the clutch to slip during launch. A car with more SLR will need less slip time, here's some general time/distance/mph/rpm calculations based on the following...
2.87 1st, 4.30 rear, 28" tire, 1.91G constant acceleration, 1.40 60', 10.40@127, trap 6600
0.3sec / 2.76' / 12.57mph / 1862rpm
0.4sec / 4.92' / 16.76mph / 2482rpm
0.5sec / 7.68' / 20.95mph / 3103rpm
0.6sec / 11.06' / 25.14mph / 3723rpm
0.7sec / 15.05' / 29.33mph / 4344rpm
0.8sec / 19.66' / 33.52mph / 4964rpm
0.9sec / 24.88' / 37.71mph / 5585rpm
1.0sec / 30.72' / 41.90mph / 6205rpm
Lets say you want to avoid a bog below 4500 after launch. The chart above says either the tires or the clutch are going to have to slip for a little over 0.7sec to make that happen.
...If you have bias slicks, you are going to have to be able to spin the tires for over 15' if you want to keep clutch slip time to a minimum. This means the tires are going to have to be a good match for the power available, as too much tire is going to make it hard to spin the tires that far.
...If you have radials, they must dead hook to be effective, so the clutch will need to slip for the entire 0.7+ sec.
Slip time for a small lightweight / low mass clutch might be limited to around 0.4sec before it starts to reach critical temps. If you need the clutch to slip for over 0.7sec, a small lightweight clutch isn't going to be a wise choice. Friction material will also play a role. Lightweight organic won't tolerate a lot of heat, ceramic and iron are better choices as long as you can put up with some loss of driveability. Lightweight steel flywheels / pressure rings are generally more forgiving when increasing slip time than the same weight aluminum.
Driveline shock is going to be pretty bad if a clutch causes the engine to be pulled down 3000rpm in 0.3sec. That represents quite a bit of stored inertia energy being dumped into the drivetrain in a short period of time. It's even worse with a big block because the rotating assy is generally heavier, which in turn means it stores more energy at a given rpm. Extending the clutch slip time to nearly double will have the added benefit of greatly reducing the shock to the rest of the drivetrain. A good rule of thumb is that if you double the time that it takes to lose a given amount of rpm, you will cut the intensity of that energy dump in half. Problem is when you have a small clutch that needs the tires to spin to live, you will still need to shock the drivetrain pretty hard just to break the tires loose.
Generally the way to adjust a clutch's slip time is to change clamp pressure. Don't choose a 2800lb PP if a 2600lb PP will get the job done. Reducing the disc's effective diameter will also increase slip time. Swapping an 11" disc for a 10.5" or even 10" may get you what you want, you can also reduce effective disc dia by trimming it down in a lathe. An alternative is to use a mechanical device to temporarily withhold some clamp pressure to get the slip time you want.
Keep in mind that the ClutchTamer has two basic adjustments. The inner adjustment allows you to vary how hard the clutch initially "hits", the outer delay adjustment allows you to separately vary how long the clutch slips beyond the hit. If you are not comfortable with long duration slipping, it's easy to dial it back.
Here's something I wrote up last nite for another forum, it kind of gives you an idea of how much slipping is actually required to reach a certain performance goal...
Lots of variables in choosing a clutch.
First you should probably figure out how long you want the clutch to slip during launch. A car with more SLR will need less slip time, here's some general time/distance/mph/rpm calculations based on the following...
2.87 1st, 4.30 rear, 28" tire, 1.91G constant acceleration, 1.40 60', 10.40@127, trap 6600
0.3sec / 2.76' / 12.57mph / 1862rpm
0.4sec / 4.92' / 16.76mph / 2482rpm
0.5sec / 7.68' / 20.95mph / 3103rpm
0.6sec / 11.06' / 25.14mph / 3723rpm
0.7sec / 15.05' / 29.33mph / 4344rpm
0.8sec / 19.66' / 33.52mph / 4964rpm
0.9sec / 24.88' / 37.71mph / 5585rpm
1.0sec / 30.72' / 41.90mph / 6205rpm
Lets say you want to avoid a bog below 4500 after launch. The chart above says either the tires or the clutch are going to have to slip for a little over 0.7sec to make that happen.
...If you have bias slicks, you are going to have to be able to spin the tires for over 15' if you want to keep clutch slip time to a minimum. This means the tires are going to have to be a good match for the power available, as too much tire is going to make it hard to spin the tires that far.
...If you have radials, they must dead hook to be effective, so the clutch will need to slip for the entire 0.7+ sec.
Slip time for a small lightweight / low mass clutch might be limited to around 0.4sec before it starts to reach critical temps. If you need the clutch to slip for over 0.7sec, a small lightweight clutch isn't going to be a wise choice. Friction material will also play a role. Lightweight organic won't tolerate a lot of heat, ceramic and iron are better choices as long as you can put up with some loss of driveability. Lightweight steel flywheels / pressure rings are generally more forgiving when increasing slip time than the same weight aluminum.
Driveline shock is going to be pretty bad if a clutch causes the engine to be pulled down 3000rpm in 0.3sec. That represents quite a bit of stored inertia energy being dumped into the drivetrain in a short period of time. It's even worse with a big block because the rotating assy is generally heavier, which in turn means it stores more energy at a given rpm. Extending the clutch slip time to nearly double will have the added benefit of greatly reducing the shock to the rest of the drivetrain. A good rule of thumb is that if you double the time that it takes to lose a given amount of rpm, you will cut the intensity of that energy dump in half. Problem is when you have a small clutch that needs the tires to spin to live, you will still need to shock the drivetrain pretty hard just to break the tires loose.
Generally the way to adjust a clutch's slip time is to change clamp pressure. Don't choose a 2800lb PP if a 2600lb PP will get the job done. Reducing the disc's effective diameter will also increase slip time. Swapping an 11" disc for a 10.5" or even 10" may get you what you want, you can also reduce effective disc dia by trimming it down in a lathe. An alternative is to use a mechanical device to temporarily withhold some clamp pressure to get the slip time you want.
08-09-2017, 11:49 AM
#30
All clutches are designed to slip, some have the ability to slip more than others. Think of it this way- when you raise stage rpm to minimize a bog, you are basically adding inertia into the rotating assy to be used for the sole purpose of forcing the clutch to slip longer against it's maximum clamp pressure to minimize the bog. The ClutchTamer allows you to get that same overall slip time from a lower launch rpm, as the slipping happens with a lower average clamp pressure. Less overall clutch wear as you didn't have to store extra energy to be used for the sole purpose of making the clutch slip.
08-09-2017, 12:02 PM
#31
I don't need it explained to me, I get it and understand the benefits of the device. And I know that all clutches slip, I'm just calling a grippy clutch that doesn't LIKE to slip a no slip clutch. We're going in circles here. Would a Monster 3 get loud and chatterry if running a clutch tamer?
Last edited by AnotherWs6; 08-09-2017 at 12:50 PM.
08-09-2017, 12:58 PM
#32
ClutchTamer doesn't really affect casual clutch release. If it chattered before when driving away from a stoplite, it's probably still chatter after. If it was chattering against a wot clutch drop, it probably won't chatter with a ClutchTamer
Grant
Grant
08-09-2017, 07:53 PM
#33
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I finally got ahold of strange and apparently the axles are street axles with the black S and apparently arnt recommend for slick cars. He said they'll more than likely break with a m6 and slicks. Wish I would've known this before hand I figured the rear was bullet proof. I went with Moser axles this time. Any of you slick stick cars with the street strange axles I'd be taking it easy on the launches because your running on borrowed time.
08-09-2017, 08:11 PM
#34
Let us know how the mosers hold up.
With 5.5k clutch dumps on slicks im thinking you should go to 40 spline axles
With 5.5k clutch dumps on slicks im thinking you should go to 40 spline axles
08-09-2017, 11:31 PM
#35
I finally got ahold of strange and apparently the axles are street axles with the black S and apparently arnt recommend for slick cars. He said they'll more than likely break with a m6 and slicks. Wish I would've known this before hand I figured the rear was bullet proof. I went with Moser axles this time. Any of you slick stick cars with the street strange axles I'd be taking it easy on the launches because your running on borrowed time.
Lame excuse
08-10-2017, 08:55 AM
#36
Okay I just got off the phone with Strange and they said they would of never told anyone that these axles would not hold up to this combination. Just like they mentioned this is the most common axle used up into that 900HP range.
So I am going to give a little more insight to this rear end. This rear end came out of a fairly fast vehicle set up with a spool. Then it was swapped over with the same axles and now has detroit locker or something of that sort. The axles most likely where not checked for length as a spool will use a different length axle than what any other differential will due to the pin. The axles where most likely running on the pin causing a chain of events and failure.
It is a shame that someone would purchase something used second hand, make changes to it and then put blame where it does not belong. This has nothing to do with the Midwest Chassis product at all as it worked flawlessly from the people you purchased it from before changes where made to it by someone else.
These have been the same axles we have used on a regular basis since 08-09 and the exact same axles that come in every S60 and the 12-bolt for the F-Body platform from Strange since they started offering rear ends for the F-Body platform. They have been proven to be bullet proof.
So I am going to give a little more insight to this rear end. This rear end came out of a fairly fast vehicle set up with a spool. Then it was swapped over with the same axles and now has detroit locker or something of that sort. The axles most likely where not checked for length as a spool will use a different length axle than what any other differential will due to the pin. The axles where most likely running on the pin causing a chain of events and failure.
It is a shame that someone would purchase something used second hand, make changes to it and then put blame where it does not belong. This has nothing to do with the Midwest Chassis product at all as it worked flawlessly from the people you purchased it from before changes where made to it by someone else.
These have been the same axles we have used on a regular basis since 08-09 and the exact same axles that come in every S60 and the 12-bolt for the F-Body platform from Strange since they started offering rear ends for the F-Body platform. They have been proven to be bullet proof.
08-10-2017, 11:54 AM
#37
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Wheel hop is a huge killer along with improper sizing. I ran my 35 spline axles for years 1000 hp. Never had a issue. I've used Strange and Moser , never had a issue with either. I run Strange 40 spline now but make over 2000 hp and run on drag radials.
08-10-2017, 11:58 AM
#38
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I finally got ahold of strange and apparently the axles are street axles with the black S and apparently arnt recommend for slick cars. He said they'll more than likely break with a m6 and slicks. Wish I would've known this before hand I figured the rear was bullet proof. I went with Moser axles this time. Any of you slick stick cars with the street strange axles I'd be taking it easy on the launches because your running on borrowed time.
08-10-2017, 06:31 PM
#39
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Okay I just got off the phone with Strange and they said they would of never told anyone that these axles would not hold up to this combination. Just like they mentioned this is the most common axle used up into that 900HP range.
So I am going to give a little more insight to this rear end. This rear end came out of a fairly fast vehicle set up with a spool. Then it was swapped over with the same axles and now has detroit locker or something of that sort. The axles most likely where not checked for length as a spool will use a different length axle than what any other differential will due to the pin. The axles where most likely running on the pin causing a chain of events and failure.
It is a shame that someone would purchase something used second hand, make changes to it and then put blame where it does not belong. This has nothing to do with the Midwest Chassis product at all as it worked flawlessly from the people you purchased it from before changes where made to it by someone else.
These have been the same axles we have used on a regular basis since 08-09 and the exact same axles that come in every S60 and the 12-bolt for the F-Body platform from Strange since they started offering rear ends for the F-Body platform. They have been proven to be bullet proof.
So I am going to give a little more insight to this rear end. This rear end came out of a fairly fast vehicle set up with a spool. Then it was swapped over with the same axles and now has detroit locker or something of that sort. The axles most likely where not checked for length as a spool will use a different length axle than what any other differential will due to the pin. The axles where most likely running on the pin causing a chain of events and failure.
It is a shame that someone would purchase something used second hand, make changes to it and then put blame where it does not belong. This has nothing to do with the Midwest Chassis product at all as it worked flawlessly from the people you purchased it from before changes where made to it by someone else.
These have been the same axles we have used on a regular basis since 08-09 and the exact same axles that come in every S60 and the 12-bolt for the F-Body platform from Strange since they started offering rear ends for the F-Body platform. They have been proven to be bullet proof.
08-10-2017, 06:52 PM
#40
TECH Addict
As I asked earlier,, but then more info ,,, So rear end assembled by an unknown? axle end clearances need checked. Too tight WILL shatter the splines off any axle.
A Real Detroit will absolutely snap axles if given a chance,
I've seen a 2.5 l NA jeep snap 1-ton dana 60 axles with one.
Never modulate throttle under a pull with a real ratcheting Detroit..
If you give up get off and stay off especially when turning.
If its a true-track(Similar to thorsen) it all needs tore down cause its got shrapnel in it.
I couldn't tell reading which locker was actually in there.. It switches a few times..
A Real Detroit will absolutely snap axles if given a chance,
I've seen a 2.5 l NA jeep snap 1-ton dana 60 axles with one.
Never modulate throttle under a pull with a real ratcheting Detroit..
If you give up get off and stay off especially when turning.
If its a true-track(Similar to thorsen) it all needs tore down cause its got shrapnel in it.
I couldn't tell reading which locker was actually in there.. It switches a few times..