Do any shops market small cams anymore? why NOT?
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Do any shops market small cams anymore? why NOT? i dont want to get into a huge discussion of what is better b/c we all know its about the combo. but why is it i never see any vendor pushing cams that are IMO very streetable, make great usable power (most people dont want to spin to 7000+ rpm), and are easy to tune?
many of us remember back in 1999-2000 when the 221/221 T1 & B1, TR224, and the smaller Futral F3-F6 cams were making ~400 rwhp at a decent rpm and guys were still running great ETs on nearly stock tunes.
Lately, all i see is the trend that if you dont push a huge cams - then people dont take the shop seriously. i dont get it.
i saw a post about cars running 11s on a small cam and its up to 4 pages. guys are seriously surprised a small cam can run well. why are so many confused? and why are the vendors not pushing smaller cams?
many of us remember back in 1999-2000 when the 221/221 T1 & B1, TR224, and the smaller Futral F3-F6 cams were making ~400 rwhp at a decent rpm and guys were still running great ETs on nearly stock tunes.
Lately, all i see is the trend that if you dont push a huge cams - then people dont take the shop seriously. i dont get it.
i saw a post about cars running 11s on a small cam and its up to 4 pages. guys are seriously surprised a small cam can run well. why are so many confused? and why are the vendors not pushing smaller cams?
you know as much as I do... its all about peak numbers to 95% of the people. People want a cam to brag about their 450 RWHP, it doesnt matter if the power curve looks like Mt. Everst, its what sells.
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Originally Posted by Country Boy
you know as much as I do... its all about peak numbers to 95% of the people. People want a cam to brag about their 450 RWHP, it doesnt matter if the power curve looks like Mt. Everst, its what sells.
I see a lot of people who want the most RWHP braggin rights, but then they never understand why the car doesn't do a damn think until 4k, and they have to drive around at 3k just to keep the car moving.
big cams are a poor choice for a daily driver. I think it is the fact that most of the newer LS1 owners weren't around back then, and just stepping into the LSX scene you would think that a 232/232 is a tiny cam now.
I still prefer smaller cams with less than 230 intake duration on stock cube LSX engines.
69 camaro had a 230/230 114
C6 had a 230/230 114
SS vert had 230/227 112
black WS6 had 230/232 112
silver Formula came with a 232/236 112 and ran like ****
my new forged 347 has a 228/232 115 for the procharger
I still prefer smaller cams with less than 230 intake duration on stock cube LSX engines.
69 camaro had a 230/230 114
C6 had a 230/230 114
SS vert had 230/227 112
black WS6 had 230/232 112
silver Formula came with a 232/236 112 and ran like ****
my new forged 347 has a 228/232 115 for the procharger
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i see so many times vendors selling these huge trex type cams for cars with 3.42 gears and have constant surging issues. it makes no sense.
also, tony - you mentioned many people were not around for the small cam days. but what i dont understand is, it is not like the small 224 type cams dont make power and great ET.
i understand selling based on peak rwhp. but hopefully, even most newbies know there are consequences to spinning the motor to 7K rpm.
also, tony - you mentioned many people were not around for the small cam days. but what i dont understand is, it is not like the small 224 type cams dont make power and great ET.
i understand selling based on peak rwhp. but hopefully, even most newbies know there are consequences to spinning the motor to 7K rpm.
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Tuning is the biggest change that has helped tame the bigger cams, but sadly, most broke-dick youngsters don't have the funds leftover to pony up for a good tune. As a consequence, their cars make hero numbers at 6500 rpm, but buck, surge and smoke below 2000 rpm. With proper tuning, the 240 cams can actually run pretty well, but unless you tune it yourself, it's tough to find a tuner that's going to do it right for less than $500. That stuff takes hours of data logging to make it perfect. 
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2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
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Originally Posted by Patrick G
That stuff takes hours of data logging to make it perfect.
patrick i understand what you are talking about. but this proves my point on why the tuners are NOT selling the small cams. you can sell 500 dollar tunes (and retunes).
again just my .02
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From: Texas and Qatar
We still sell a lot of 224 and 228 cams as well as 224/228's. EVERYONE wants the biggest cam they can fit though because they see their buddy making 450rwhp with a big cam. My favorite "smaller" cam is a 228/228 on a 111lsa.
Originally Posted by gator's 99TA
or you can throw in a 224 cam on nearly stock tuning, run 11s na, and have a great running car lol.
Also with the big cams, it like a big dick contest. People feel the need that they have to "measure up" to everyone else. One guy has a 240+ cam and the rest have to follow or they feel like the "litttle man".
A lot of the young kids want the pro-stock sounding idle. That's one of the big draws to the Donkey Dick cams. They don't realize they can get that sound with a 224/224 cam. Just lower the idle speed and pull some timing back. It will chop like a ****!
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
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carl, who did the tune on that car? and did it have a stock converter?
my car idled perfect with a 230/230 on a 111 lsa comp xe grind with a futral tune. shrug.
while i do like the pro stock idle of the big cams, i dont like the hassle of depending on a tuner to get it right. it usually takes a few trips.
my next cam with this new 347 mild street buildup will have a futral F13 cam (if i can get him to order it for me). power and no headaches. if i DD my car the ole B1 or TR224 on a 114 cam would be my choice. i recommend those exact cams and others look at me like i dont know what i am talking about
my car idled perfect with a 230/230 on a 111 lsa comp xe grind with a futral tune. shrug.
while i do like the pro stock idle of the big cams, i dont like the hassle of depending on a tuner to get it right. it usually takes a few trips.
my next cam with this new 347 mild street buildup will have a futral F13 cam (if i can get him to order it for me). power and no headaches. if i DD my car the ole B1 or TR224 on a 114 cam would be my choice. i recommend those exact cams and others look at me like i dont know what i am talking about
I think an XER 224/228 112 has a pretty cool idle in a 346, idling at 14.5:1 a/f just about anything has a nice little lope. Guys around here with the 240+ stuff in M6 cars with a 3.42 just crack me up since its all 1/8 mile tracks. Nothing like you pro-stock idle LS1 getting owned by a stock subaru STI at the local track..
My favorite line is 'man it sure pulls on the top end with this huge cam' when in reality it just has no bottom end
My favorite line is 'man it sure pulls on the top end with this huge cam' when in reality it just has no bottom end
I ended up getting an F13 112 for my new motor, instead of doing about the same thing in a little bigger custom grind. These guys that are running the 240+ cams in DDs just kill me. I am over it.
Its all about what the customers want. At FLP our custom cams were much smaller than what everyone on the web advertised. We almost never speced out anything bigger than 230/230 unless the owner wanted to go racing. **** we had a customer with H/C(212/218), headers, stock SS CME and made 415 rwhp through M6. Running next to a stock car you couldnt tell the difference.
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From: Texas and Qatar
Originally Posted by maddboost
Its all about what the customers want.
Well, at least I know how to properly check PtoV on those huge cams (clay is ghey!), there are some recent vendors cams that just should not be run that tight. Optimal cam events often don't account for unoptimum mechanical interference.
Originally Posted by Patrick G
A lot of the young kids want the pro-stock sounding idle. That's one of the big draws to the Donkey Dick cams. They don't realize they can get that sound with a 224/224 cam. Just lower the idle speed and pull some timing back. It will chop like a ****!
Tuning helps a lot, but people lose sight of the fact that big overlap cams that make big power up don't make the power at daily driver rpms. Patrick made himself famous for 350 ft-lbs of torque at 3000 rpm (dynojet) with his AFR/ported FAST/headers/110 LSA set-up. Guess what, I make that TQ too on stock heads & manifolds, I just get don't have the big power up top. The 224/224 112 is still a great choice for a daily driver as -4* to +6* overlap is a optimal daily driver range (assuming headers).
Last edited by Ragtop 99; Aug 29, 2007 at 08:11 PM.
