Stan's Customs

Yep just like it says...

I just can't make myself use the LS motors on what is to be my last street rod/driver.

I know all the resons to use one...but after going to a couple of local car shows...every vintage resto-mod there had one . I've got to be different...I just can't help it. It would be cheaper to go that route...it would get 25 miles to the gallon..run like a bat out of Haydes and would be one of the crowd....Aaaack!! The last part chokes me up...Double Aaaack...!!

I really hate it too...because it ain't gona be easy to get a set up that can do all that.

This "61 Corvette project will have an after market frame with front and rear C4 Corvette suspension...the body and interior will look nearly original.

The rear gear will be a 3:55, the trans will be a 2004R and the car will have A/C (for a 60 year old guy in Texas heat).

Now then ...I have researched mysely cross eyed...with all the different, heads, flat tappett and roller cams, one piece and 2 piece rear main seals, Barry Grant carbs, Edelbrock carbs, Holleys...after market fuel injection, GMPP ram jet injection, Arizona Speed and Marine nostalga stuff, and the list goes on ...

I used to like old school forged pistons, hard steel cranks and angle plug 202 heads back in the day, with a 4 speed, a soild lifter cam and 4:11 gears. Had several of them ...then I discovered big blocks and...well you get the picture.


This is going to be an expensive car to build, and my last one so it needs to be special (sorta)...maybe cool is the word. I want be able to drive across the nation, if need be, with A/C and get decent fuel mileage. Plenty of torque for the occasional red light contest...and mileage because street drags won't be that frequent with me these days.

In other words...a really fun to drive, spirited, dependable classic 61/C4 corvette that "anyone" would "love" to own.......with A/C.

So here's the quiz...you young guys can probably spit out a configuration without blinking an eye...I could back in the day...but no more.

What would you suggest ...in a pre LS config., including Brands, for the following components......that fit the personality of this vintage resto mod ...

A. Block (roller/non roller/2 bolt/4 bolt)
B. Crank (stroked/ destroked/ forged/ cast)
C. Heads (aluminum/iron/valve size)
D. Pistons (Hyperutectic/Forged/Squish/flat top/other)
D. Cam (LIft/Duration/ roller/ flat tappet)
E. Fuel (Carburetor/cfm/fuel injection/GM/aftermarket)


(Remember 3:55 gears, 3,000 lb car, Corvette C4 suspension, 2004R overdrive trans.)

Doesnt have to be long winded ..(unless you would like to be)... but pretty specific would be helpful.

I will build this engine, since I have a great machinist and want it balanced among other things. (I was a mechanic/garage owner in the 70's)


Thanks for any opinions I've just about gone brain dead....
best regards...Stan M.

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

1- Mowtown Aluminum block # 084520 http://www.worldcastings.com/
2- SBC 427 cid rotating assembly
3- AFR 227 cc Competition ported heads 2.1"int/1.6"exh
4- Forged inverted dome for pump gas
5- Retro-fit hyd roller custom ground to fit what you want out of the car
6- Fuel injection hands down, but why not let it look like a carb.
--- www.retrotekspeed.com/

Lastly, but most importantly, have fun!!!

Stan's Customs

Yea ...that'll do heh heh!

The fuel economy with an 427 inch engine that flows thru AFR heads...might be just a little weak though....10 mpg maybe?) Another problem this car has is lack of traction..tire size is severely limited. Could be a mite expensive for what I'm after too...but it "would be real fun" Like playing on ice in the winter.

A '67 427 Corvette epitomizes American street rodding though...427 is always agood choice on the engine....albeit small bloc instead of big block...bet the mileage would be similar though.

However I had a big block SS that actually didn't do too bad back in '69..on mileage that is.

Thanks for the links...I need to look at the FI carb look a like and see how programable the ECM is. Closed loop or not....I have not seen those till now. Although Arizona Speed and Marine has a FI set up, which resembles the old style 60's Fuel injection...that I have considered... providing I could get a real good GM ecm to manage it.

Thanks again...


Anyone else?

best regards.....Stan

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

Stan, you might destroke that hoss to a 377 (4.125" bore x 3.48" stroke). They make great HP and more reasonable torque for your little pizza cutters. Your fuel economy should be around 25 mpg on the highway. You will like the features of the Boss EFI, no tuning. It tunes it self, all you do is load a base program close to your engine combo. That gets the engine started, then it starts tuning itself by reading the wideband 60 times a second. It does have interface capabilities to be able to look and modify things in the ECU.

Stan's Customs

Hmmm...that's a thought . I even have a destroked engine ...but its not a roller block. It's in a 1980 Silverado short bed I've had forever. I don't like the way it runs..but the cam and heads are wrong for the engine .and application. It was built for a boat and I just dropped it in the pickup for storage and to be able to start it once in a while. The trans seals went out so its been sitting so long I don't even rememember what head we put on it just to keep it running. Had quite a bit of piston slap too..so it likely needs to be bored. I think it has a forged crank ...but don't remember if it's standard/standard or what. In fact I don't remember what I did at all I guess...just that it is a 400 block and 350 crank with space saver main bearings.

I'd probably just build a new one...Got any head and cam recommendations for the engine you suggest? ...roller block and cam?

My computer tuner..likes GM ecms because of their versatility...Im not up to speed on that stuff really. Is the Boss EFI comparable to the GM ecms in their flexibility for tuning? Anything over 20 MPG is good enough..as long as it will run in the mountains and at sea level.

Thanks again for the input...Stan

Stan's Customs

....hmmm don't make a roller 400 block though, do they?

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

Stan, on the block, are you thinking of a roller block having the roller cam bearings or set up for an OEM hyd roller cam & lifters?

On the heads I would go with one of two choices, the AFR 210's or the new Dart Platinum Pro 1's in a 215cc int runner. As far as pricing goes the Dart's are going to be cheaper and are not CNC ported. However they are cast useing wet flow technology and are brand new for the buyer's. That is a good thing since the casting molds will not have shifted to much just yet. I have been working with the cast iron versions here lately with the circle track racer's. They are a very nice casting and do not require very much porting to take them to their max potential. Thus makeing them a strong canidate to stay close to AFR potential.

The cam needs to be optimized for your combination of parts after you have a set parts list. That is why I recommend a custom grind cam. The cam tends to be the most over looked part of the motor, when it is the brain of the whole operation. An off the shelf cam may, or most likely, will not make everything work together without one part fighting the other. I use this as a "calling card" when I see a racer that could use some help and has the attitude that I want associated with my business. So far I haven't had a single complaint and get to watch their cars go to the winner's circle. I have had excellent advice from the cam grinder I use and have learned a ton of info from him.

As far as the ECM goes I do not have any longevity info for you, as this is a new system in the 4 barrel version. I would call them and ask them this question, as they should have info from their previous Stromberg "97" 6 pack for you. http://www.retrotekspeed.com/product...lgia-efi_.html From the sounds of things, elevation problem's are less than a OEM ECM. Depending, this is a generalized statement, your stock computer can only go plus or minus 20% from the base tune. The way this Boss EFI ECU works, it doesn't have that problem, as you lock in a air fuel ratio and that is all the computer adjust's things to. So it looks like it could care less about elevation changes. I do know that there will be adverse afffects here and there with elevation changes, but the loss is alot less than you would see from a OEM computer.

EPP

iTrader: (22)

You could go with a new Warhawk LS1 and make it a 427. Not too many out there yet, as they have just recently been released, and it will make a ton of power. Add an ATI ProCharger to make it something even further out of the ordinary. The ATI ProCharger GTO kit is the one we start with for a lot of our projects, as it places the blower up higher on the driver side.
Here are several links to where we have used it the ProCharger GTO kit.
http://www.exoticperformanceplus.com...Car.php?car=22
http://www.exoticperformanceplus.com...Car.php?car=38

You could have 800+ rwhp at the tires, and still see great fuel economy! Bob

wannasupra

why not use an lsx block, low compression, and a turbo. you'd be able to turn the boost down to practically nothing if you wanted to, and run 87 octane. sounds like a sweet project tho.

Stan's Customs

Good morning 1997bird....

Roller cam...referring to roller block, sorry it's a habit, I just distinguish old sbc's from later models that way...

I had sorta expected this thread to suggest something along the line of a Vortec style engine..with the iron stock heads. For torque over the fast burns and a roller block config...maybe using the drop top top injection from ASM in this link.

http://azspeed.stores.yahoo.net/cofuinsy.html

Of course the reason was to imulate some old school appearance and still have fuel injection. The MEFI 4 controller that comes with this system is junk, or so my tuner says. So there you go...back to the drawing board..unless I could rig up a GM ecm and more sensors or something.

I agree that many over look the cam importance. It's a difficult choice too ..since there are so many to choose from. I have never had the luxury of a cam grinder that really understands cam dynamics well enough to do custom work either. That would be a boon for any engine builder......

Appearance is paramount in this my very last street project....as my engines have always been one off, so to speak. To do this one any diferent would be uncharacteristic to say the least, and it needs to be the best I have ever built. However I have never sacrificed practicality for the apperarance...so it must be top notch then establish the bling..if you get my drift.

The carb injection you pointed me too is along those lines too...and I hadn't seen it before.

Back to the heads...the Vortec heads have to be used with the ASM intake is another reason I was considering them. Heads have come so far in the past few years..that I realized that I was completely out of touch and that they might be a bad choice in todays offerings...hence the inquiry.

I have built several boat motors lately...nothing fancy..but paid close attention to the squish factor. Gas at marinas is notariously poor quality and pinging is likely if you have any compression at all and improper squish. They have all worked well for what they were...

So that brings up the proposition of Squish type pistons with reverse domes compared other configs or not.....after a head choice is made.

I am really interested in building a perfectly matched low hp engine (not really...but by today's standards...with nitrous, blowers etc. etc.), with particular emphasis on machine work....and quality. That of course follows along the line you mentioned of a perfectly matched cam.....which is easier said than done. In fact building this engine is easier said that done...it's hard to be cool without going to hp extremes or foolish exotic stuff that will loose it appeal as soon as some other exotic comes out. It's like it has to already have depreciated before you build it.....and establish an engine with timeless appeal. Much like the car itself...

I have always been competitive with inexpensive parts and good machine work,before so much was available to the street builder (not to mention I couldn't afford expensive parts...barely could afford the machine work). Fortunately I can affford most anything...within reason...on this project. Old habits are hard to break though...so I will be happier if I just don't start throwing money at it....

If it will squall the tires when I want, has cold air, gets decent fuel economy....and most important ....you hear that gasp and WOW when a newcomer sees under the hood...then it's timeless.

All this without sacrificing reliability...and the deep down feeling you have when you know that under the bling is a truly fine pice of machinery....albeit older technology perhaps, just not from the stone age.

Wow...sorry to get so long winded...as you can see this car is very important to me...I'm trying to not overlook something, there's so much to consider these days, I'm unsure of my own opinions.

Thanks for your input...it is greatly appreciated.

This off the subject...but I see you are in Aztec, New Mexico. I lived in the Jal, Hobbs area as a teen...and wound up spending 20+ years in the Midland, Odessa area. Back then I had a friend named Phil Holman that moved back and forth between the Farmington/Aztec area to Midland. He had a brother named Ronnie and we were all mechanics....and street car owners. Phil had a garage for a short there too (New Mexico)...I'm sure speed stuff was predominant. Just thought you might have heard of him...even though our friend ship petered out ...those were good days.

Thanks to the other posters too...however after much consideration, I don't think any LS engine configuration is a consideration. A car show that had several vintage resto mods I recently attended dispelled any notion of that. They were "all" LS engines...They are the best probably, but....well, there are just too many of them for my project. I just can't make myself go with the crowd.
Thanks for the suggestions ...I guess anything is really open till I make the final choice and spend $$$.....but as it stands now..No LS's. Thanks again..

Best regards...Stan M.

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

Stan, I don't know of a part number for an aftermarket aluminum block that is set up like a OE hyd roller. All I have seen are retro-fit setups only, just like your older SBC's. I agree quench is a very important issue as well. So far the parts that I gave you are nice, but economical parts, that will give you some very nice HP & TQ number's. I think a 377 with some flat top piston's will give you a nice pump gas freindly power house. I 110% agree with you on the importance of your machine work being another big area not to ever skimp on. Your foundation is what everything else works off of.
I have only been living down here in Aztec for about 5 yrs. I know several people that would know who your old freinds were though. Hot rods are still very prominate here though. Things will pick up even more when they get the new dragstrip built. They have had too much street racing going on and had several people killed b/c of it. The Farmington city council has helped fund the project to get the racing off of the streets. When it is finished it will be a NHRA sanctioned track to be put into the circut for the big dawgs.

edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

If money is no option, how about a LT5? Thats would be kewl!! And they have come down in price somewhat.
If you dont know what a LT5 is, its the ZR1 4 cam motor. Like I said, KEWL!!
Oh, and a shout out to 97bird! wutup yo!

Stan's Customs

Ok 1997bird..
.... you are talking about a Motown block for the 377 too. I'm a little slow on the uptake I guess. That's sounding better all the time. So is the 427 too...heh heh! Sure is hard not to build gobs of horsepower! I'll look closer at the 377 using their block.. I didn't find a price list there...guess I overlooked that too....or do you have to give them a call for pricing? Do you have a ballpark idea what these blocks cost?

What cam do you like for the 377...and are we talking a roller or flat tappett.

AFR heads are about $1500 the last time I priced any..and Darts were around $1100....if that is still about right ..that's about what I planned to spend on heads.

Sounds like Farmington has the right idea...plus a dragstrip is good for the local economy. It was just a shot ...I imagine anyone that is around 55-60 will know the Holman's if they have lived in the area always. They were friendly guys..

Thanks again..

...and thanks to you Ed but money is always an issue even when it isn't ...there is a ceiling, but thanks for the input.

Best regards..Stan M.

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

This is the AFR #1050 Race Ready head.
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...0002_390585_-1

This is the AFR #1100 Competition Port head.
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...0002_391310_-1

The Dart Pro 1 Platinum's are supposed to be around $1350.
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...ads/index.html

This is just a quick idea how much the aluminum block runs. I do believe that you can get better pricing with a little bit of research.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

If I were to build this motor for myself, this is how I would build it.
- Motown # 084520 block
- AFR 210 competition port heads w/68cc combution chambers
- 3.5" stroke 4340 lightweight crank, 6.0" I-beam w/7/16" capscrews, 4.155" Mahle
__piston # SBC250155F05
- Zero deck the block
- retro-fit hyd roller cam with 1.6 ratio shaft mount rockers
- Edlebrock Victor Jr. intake
- 1" HVH Super Sucker Carb spacer
- 1200 cfm Boss EFI fuel injection system
- 1 3/4" Primary tube headers w/28" long tubes & 12" collector's

Any way my cam recommendation for this motor with the Dart heads is as follows:
Adv. Duration 286/294
@0.050" Dur. 246/254
lift w/1.6 ratio .592"/.592"
LSA 112*
ICL 107*

With the AFR 210 comp port heads:
Adv. Duration 286/294
@0.050" Dur. 246/254
lift w/1.6 ratio .592"/.592"
LSA 112*
ICL 109*

Stan's Customs

Hey 1997bird...

I didn't get a notification of a new post on this thread..sorry to take so long to acknowledge.

Well that looks like a heck of an engine...albeit expensive.

Any idea as to the HP of this configuration...and a guess on the fuel mileage that might be expected with 3:55's and a 2004R...?

Thanks for the links and the build suggestions, I'll sure consider them. Looks like a $12K motor at first glance...whew! Still have to do a cooling system, ignition serpentine belts and brackets...the list goes on. I was hoping to stay around $8K or $9K for the motor, trans and related under hood items. Looks like that was a bit optimistic...

This is a very good platform though...I like the big bore block a lot. Hadn't considered that ...and of course it adds quite bit to the build cost over something like a GMPP block for instance....so there you go. I'm gona' have to look this over more closely tonight.

Thanks again ...best regards...Stan M.

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

I am still going to stand firm on the 25 mpg. With the AFR heads I would use, I got 604 HP @ 6800 rpm & 523 lb-ft. TQ @ 5000 rpm. With the Dart heads 518 HP @ 6600 rpm & 501 lb-ft. TQ @ 4800 rpm. These are the numbers that my Dynomation professional engine building software gave me. That is why I was specific on the combo that I would use for the build if it were mine. These are measured distances for intake runner lengths and the port widths. I can also simulate the header diameters as well: primary dia.'s, primary lengths, collector inlet/oulet dia., and collector lengths.

Yeah the build price starts going up real quick with the all aluminum theme.

Stan's Customs

That sure is tempting. I'd love to have one of those...but after sleeping on it it seems like its way more HP than this car can get to the ground . The aerodynamics quit between around 135mph....that's all you better go too.
Red light contest will be over before you even begin to get solid traction at half throttle or less....no weight and no tires.

The fast '61/ '62 cars of old did well to make 350/375 hp and that's stretching it....with mods.

Looks like I should aim at building a present day sbc that would have a similar amount of HP as the LS motors in stock form......but be disguised as an old stocker or the like.

I have never had as much trouble building a car ...it's because these things make terrible street cars. ...but they are cool. They have no engine well space...no tire clearance...have junk differentials and frames and no aerodrnamics.....no brakes and no steering, in fact 1953 front suspension. That's why I'm changing the frame..its cheaper than trying to make the old chassis work well.

Old Camaros for instance are natural born hot rods...box the frame and go. Any engine (BB included), great tire clearance, good weight transfer, light weight ...etc.etc.

Theres really no sense trying to out run everything in this car...it just won't happen with no traction...regardless of how much money I throw at the engine. Of course you don't want to build a slug...it still needs to be nostalgic, fun....and look good.

So....before I get carried away with all the Gee Whiz of this killer combo...I better "woah", for a minute and regroup.

The old school vettes that were fuel injected...or "fuelies" were then and now the most sought after in stock form. That's why I keep going back to the Arizona Speed and Marine Drop Top Fuel injection...it looks like the old school fuelie to most casual observers that haven't seen many of the originals.

The problem with that is ...the MEFI 4 controller, it is poor, according to a couple of guys I know that have tried the GMPP Ram Jet manifold. (which is the base that ASM uses for their retro-injection). In fact they took the Ram Jets off and sold them.

I wish I was astute enough to refit this ASM unit with something like the Boss EFI injection and controller...especially if it works as well as you think. Then I would have the nostalgia look that I'm after and the engine could be configured to perform well with that fuel delivery.

I like the throttle body Boss efi set up ...but it would be invisible under a breather. ...on the other hand if it could be made to work on the ASM manifold...it would "look" like a fuelie car the instant you opened the hood. That would be the last thing you would expect to see...

...gasp and "wow" follows, I would hope. That's what these cars have to have first...but not without solid performance to back it up. Not excessive performance...just solid with fuel economy and A/c.

Ever car I have ever built in the past was easy...just make as much horsepower as I could afford...simple!

This car is a retro car...can't ever be really fast. What it needs is very good performance, cold starts that you can drop in gear and leave, and fuel economy to match current technology...all the while having old school Gee Whiz appearance. And of course it needs to drive and ride better than a log wagon. That's tough to get the "perfect combination" without getting off on a rabbit trail... at least has been for me so far.

I guess that's why every Tom, Dick and Harry has either a LS Motor or a GMPP crate engine......I'd use a crate engine with some bling on top before I'd put an LS motor in this retro car though...so there you go. Guess that's what others decided too..

Well I have an errand to run..

Thanks again for your input..

Best regards..Stan M.

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

How about a 283 with a look alike 3 duece set up then? http://www.retrotekspeed.com/product...-injector.html
You could still stay with the retro-fit hyd roller to help the TQ out. Run a set of the AFR 180 cc heads and 10.5:1 compression. You would have your engine pricing more along your pricing guidelines and the power you were looking for.

Stan's Customs

I had entertained the idea of a 327 ...just disn't find a fuel system that i thought would work. My wife says I'm not going to be happy till make the Arizona Speed and Marine system work on whatever I get. She may be right ...even though I'm trying to give everything else a chance.

Do you think the 283 with the AFR heads will make similar HP to an LS motor? ...seems unlikely to me.. But good heads and a roller cam mke HP quick. Of course the LS motors have a roller cam and pretty decent heads themselves.

...Stan

edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

Still stuck on the LT5. Mega cool factor. Plus great cold start up and driveaway characteristics. Not to mention mileage. It would take some searching but they are out there. Its different than most everybody elses, and still a modern powertrain.