Debate is healthy. I'm not asking for you to stop posting. And you don't need to take you ball and go home. But if someone asks something, I'm going to tell them what I think and why.

You are correct in that handling is largely in the "butt" of the beholder. But again it comes down to one simple point. I've tried a lot more setups (and am lucky to have done so). It's not personal that you haven't. You just don't have as much information to go off of. I think that is more than a small point. After all, we have plenty of folks here who put on a set of say, Sportlines with stock shocks, don't realign the car and proclaim how great it is. I'm not saying you'd agree with that, only that the improvement is relative. Until you try something better, or worse, you can't say what you have is good enough if you are really interested in making the car work as well as it can.

Now, I can agree that it's good enough for you. And if you are happy, that's awesome. But you said it yourself, handling is pretty subjective. And at that point folks have to listen to all the input they can, assess what they hear and make a decision. I'm simply trying to give all the information I can. I'm not out to hurt anyone's feelings, but I'm not going to let someone make a decision without all the pertinent information I can give them.

 

I appreciate your thoughts. And I'm not taking anything and going home. I'm just gonna let you sell your warez as you see fit ... BTW, have you recently read the Tech bulletin on Ground Control's website about bump stops? It's an interesting read ...

And in all these "debates" we've had, I think you miss a couple very important points ...

I too have tried multiple set-ups and had my share of parts to "evaluate". As many as you? I doubt it, because my cost for parts is probably much greater than yours. And I have never tried parts from Stranoparts.com ...

But, quantity doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things ... It's the end result. And you are making far reaching assumptions about my car's handling, especially after having never seen it or driven it.

And finally, having been exposed to your knowledge over the years, I find one thing bubbles to the surface each and every time ... your advice directs the buyer to the setup that is optimum for a given suspension component, not optimum for an individual's application.

An enthusiast doesn't need revalved shocks to drive back and forth to work. I will agree that revalves will help track times when the edge has been reached, but they won't shave any time off of a person's commute ...

 

That's a lie Mitch. And I can prove it. I sold a guy a complete Level 1 kit from SLP a few weeks back. As a matter of fact, he posted about it. Why? Because we discuss HIS needs and HIS wants (not mine). And we came up with the result that the Level 1 would best fit HIS INDIVIDUAL NEEDS!!!!!!! Why do you not grasp that fact? I have customers out there with Koni's DA Koni's, Bilstein's, Revalved Bilstein's, SLP Bilstein's, Hotchkis springs, Eibach springs, Coil-overs, 35mm front bars, 32mm front bars, 19mm rear bars, 21, 22 and even some with 24mm rear bars. If I pigeon-holed people, those various setups would not exist. Further, I'd e-mail everyone and tell them setup X is PERFECT. I don't and that's well known.

You do/did have some of my parts on the car, and that's one of things that told me you tend to make half-assed decisions. You hated that 35mm bar and took it off. Further we heard how good the car was with the 32. You didn't make any changes to work with the 35 and just slapped it on. When it didn't work you proclaimed it sucked. Then somewhere along the way you tried it again, this time with some tweaks to make the package work better. All of a sudden, you liked it. It's this kind of assessment that makes me wonder.

I've not driven your particular car. But your setup ain't special. And I've driven LOTS of cars with the same type of setups. Have you driven a car with my setup? No.

As for what they need or want. Does anyone need 315's for street driving? No, but some folks want them. Does anyone need stiff springs like LG's for the street? Hell no, but you recommend them. What's the difference in recommending better dampers? After all, what you have failed, so far, to grasp is that good shocks are the lynch-pin of making ours cars work as best they can. Let me put this plainly. I talk to my customers in person. I don't rely on e-mail or forums alone. That way I get a lot more information. I ask MANY questions of the person about what they want, need and expect. ONLY THEN DO I MAKE A RECOMMENDATION. Of course you wouldn't realize that since you have convinced yourself that I only do things one way. I'm not going to convince you otherwise, that's clear. I'm just not that way, regardless of what you think.

But you can bury you head in the sand if you please. Unfortunately, I feel I owe folks a complete explanation, not just one side. Which is why we keep going rounds. You don't ever provide the whole story....

I think I've made my point abundantly clear. And for those reading who don't agree, I probably wouldn't want to deal with you anyway. Suspensions are not easy and are not one-size fits all. Pick you camp folks. I'll explain why thinks work, why I think things should be a certain way and so on. Or you can take the word of random someones online..... I know that I can't be all things to all people. Nor do I want to be. I'm just trying to get folks the stuff THEY need, not what I have. I rarely sell my exact setup to anyone because rarely do I get calls looking for setups to do exactly what I do....................................

 

Wow.

Well, I'm happy with what you sold me Sam, and I guess that's all that matters in the end. Still works great to this very day, and it did fit my needs and wants perfectly.

 

Wow ... I guess you were on the bumpstops 'cause you certanly oversteered on that one.

You are correct about the bar ... a Suspension Techniques bar ... and I didn't like it at first. But I kept reading the data my tires were giving me and kept trying different things till it did "come alive". And amazingly enough, it wasn't a set of $600 shocks, rather a set of $200 springs and a camber change.

I got the same end result, just went about it a different way ... different, not necessarily better. although for me it was because I saved several hundred dollars.

I was very open and honest about all that ... I never tried to hide anything. You make it sound like you were feeding me the resolution to my problems and that just wasn't the case, although I seem to recall a very pointed "Told you so."

Don't get all bent out of shape here. You are spending an inordinate amount of time justifying yourself to me and it's just not necessary. I have repeatedly stated that I have the utmost respect for you as a driver.

 

debate is healthy... but I think this guy needs shocks... what you guys think ?

 

I'm with Eugenio, and I'd consider a non chopped set of bumpstops (the Z28 stops are probably the best choice) to go with them. I suspect that will make a tremendous difference in your ride and performance.

 

I like shocks.

 

OK so I have both. I have the Eibach Prokit and Koni DA shocks. And I will admit I am fairly suspension illiterate, but how the heck is a shock going to make up for a very soft spring that causes the car to bottom out? The only way I could stop the rear of the car from bottoming out was to dial the shocks close to the max setting at both ends and wound up with NO rear ride at all . . .

I even tried the "removing" the SS spacer on the bumpstop and all that did was cause the *** of the car to drop even further, causing even more damage to my tire (wheel well lip cutting sidewall) So . . . .

I am confused. But seriously doubt a shock is going to resolve my saggy springs.

Thanks for all the input from all, this has been very educational

 

You know, I bought the ProKit and some Bilstein HD's, and some 19" evo's with 275/30's (seriously low profile). Then I got a little "nervous" because I started reading all these negative posts about how the ProKit springs suck and the back end sags, and the Bilstein shocks can't handle the springs, and the ProKit with Bilstein's set up will cause my car to bounce down the road like some slammed Civic, or it'll be so harsh that I'll end leaving my spleen along the roadside, etc. etc.

Well, just had all the above installed recently, and so far I have no complaints whatsoever. The back end does APPEAR to sit a little lower because of the rear wheel wells. And, granted, I live in Florida where the roads may be a little better than the northeast area, and I'm definitely not into pulling 1 G turns. The car actually rides better over certain terrain and absolutely doesn't bounce. I guess my experience is my experience and obviously everyone's circumstance/need is different....bye.

 

The lower the car is, the more spring rate you need. The springs job is to support the car and prevent bottoming. So, your car/kit is either too soft or too low for the spring rate.

However, a shock with enough compression damping can slow the rate of compression, this will act like you "added spring rate" to the car. So, you may be able to "bandaid" the situation with better shocks, but it's not a perfect solution. In many cases, a combination of more compression damping and the bumpstops (being soft to start with and progressively stiffer) will get the job done (even with too little spring rate).

The rebound setting on the shock controls the rate of roll when the car turns into a corner, but not the total roll. More rebound valving will increase the "go kart" like feel of the car (but you can go too far which will make the car nervous and easy to slide). So, a shock with increased rebound damping can make the car respond better and feel much more willing to turn when it is asked to.

Sway bars. Bars control the "total roll" (springs have an impact on it as well) of the vehicle. Shocks control the rate, sway bars control the amount. Higher spring rates will reduce the total body roll as well, but using spring instead of bar can make a car too stiff and hard to drive.

So, there is not one perfect answer, but several combinations can yield good results. Ideally, you might wish for more spring rate, but you may get away with some extra compression damping. If you reduce the rebound damping when you add compression, the ride will not be nearly as abusive. If you run a "bunch" of each one, you may find that the suspension won't "move" and it acts like it has nearly solid spacers in the spring locations (and rides very rough). It takes some experimentation.

 

Well... I had prokits and Koni DAs for awhile.
I changed to coil-overs cause I wanted a slightly stiffer spring and a bit more suspension travel... cause imho, for that drop, one does need a bit stiffer springs, imho, fwiw.
Anyway, I recall having the same combo, and I also did remove the jouncer spacers... one thing to note from what you said, is that you would dial both settings to "full hard".
Doing that on the lower setting will make the car feel like a pickup truck and the rear will end up lifting in the air whenever you hit a bump on the road.
Not only will that not be confortable, but scray, and you can wipe-out the car... especially if roads are similar to the ones here.
I found that having them @ full-soft in the bottom did a good job, but would bottom out a bit more often... so I put it @ 1 click from full-soft (I'm talking about the bottom setting on the rear shocks).
Actually, I wounder if it's possible to get shorter bumpstops... that would help, i think.
After quite some time of fundling with suspension changes/tuning... i'm pretty much @ the conclusion that lowering the car brings more trouble... I rather get the spring rate of choice and leave the car close to stock height... at least, suspension does its work.

 

DO NOT use shorter bumpstops on a stock Koni DA. I tried that and damaged a shock that way (costing me a $450 rebuild for the rear shocks). If you run Koni DA's, you really must run stock bumpstops or use some other means to limit the compression travel to the stock dimension. Just experience speaking.

 

true.... forgot about that and you shortening them as well.
mmmm.... guess I'll only be doing the z-28 bumptop upgrade from the SS ones.

 

Good idea.

 

Thanks for the feed back, I'll experiment more with the shock settings. I like the idea of the Z-28 bumpstop . . . But more than likely the Eibachs will hit the dumpster.