Koni vs. Bilstein Write-up (long)
TECH Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
From: Boston, MA
[QUOTE=SVTHuh;8593871]The Konis have much higher rebound damping
Front - Koni D/A's set 2 clicks softer than dead middle on both compression and rebound, 650# coilovers, 1LE bar
Rear - Koni D/A's set dead middle on compression and rebound, Hotchkis lowering springs, 1LE bar, Adj. Panhard bar.
QUOTE]
Wow, I don't have DA's, but that seems a bit stiff all around in the rear and soft in rebound in the front for 650#'s. Especially since you only have a 32mm front bar with a 21 rear. Do you have a heavy rear axle or something?
A little compliance is good for grip. Does she get loose alot?
Front - Koni D/A's set 2 clicks softer than dead middle on both compression and rebound, 650# coilovers, 1LE bar
Rear - Koni D/A's set dead middle on compression and rebound, Hotchkis lowering springs, 1LE bar, Adj. Panhard bar.
QUOTE]
Wow, I don't have DA's, but that seems a bit stiff all around in the rear and soft in rebound in the front for 650#'s. Especially since you only have a 32mm front bar with a 21 rear. Do you have a heavy rear axle or something?
A little compliance is good for grip. Does she get loose alot?
TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,055
Likes: 1
From: Hartsdale, NY
SVT:
So you are running 650 pound springs on the front? Wow, aren't 1LE springs 360 pounds for the front? Sammie springs are 500; right?
So this car does not ride like a 18-wheeler?
Anyway; why did you opt for the double adjustible Koni shocks? What does adjustible compression do anyway?
So you are running 650 pound springs on the front? Wow, aren't 1LE springs 360 pounds for the front? Sammie springs are 500; right?
So this car does not ride like a 18-wheeler?
Anyway; why did you opt for the double adjustible Koni shocks? What does adjustible compression do anyway?
My springs are 550 front. He's @ 650, I race on 600's... He's probably using that spring rate because of the smaller front bar. I'd actually have more roll control @ 550 and 35 than 650/32. I go to the way I do because I don't like to use more spring than I need for a job.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
I use the 650's cuz I got a deal on front Koni DA's and springs with Global West perches from a friend that races... I got them for $350. The shocks are actually revalved to work with springs all the way up to 1000#'s hence the soft setting.
The car is actually surprisingly comfortable to ride in. I get a lot of feedback from road imperfections, but its very compliant and I do daily drive it most of the time. The rear has the Hotchkis lowering springs (150ish I think) and the rear shocks to need to be softened up a click or so, but the car feels good and the rear is planted. The car is setup quite well and everything really just works when Im up in the canyons. I probably could fine tune it a bit more, but its really good as it sits.
Sam is right, with a bigger bar and slightly softer springs, there would probably be more roll control, but my setup was CHEAP and very effective. I would say that my setup is probably close to par with Sams, giving the edge to him.
The car is actually surprisingly comfortable to ride in. I get a lot of feedback from road imperfections, but its very compliant and I do daily drive it most of the time. The rear has the Hotchkis lowering springs (150ish I think) and the rear shocks to need to be softened up a click or so, but the car feels good and the rear is planted. The car is setup quite well and everything really just works when Im up in the canyons. I probably could fine tune it a bit more, but its really good as it sits.
Sam is right, with a bigger bar and slightly softer springs, there would probably be more roll control, but my setup was CHEAP and very effective. I would say that my setup is probably close to par with Sams, giving the edge to him.
I would agree the results are similar in terms of balance and roll control, just different ways of going at it. However, I don't run that much bump.... I don't even run DA's on my own car (I don't like the extra compression personally).
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www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
I can agree with you. The SA's would probably be more compliant on my setup, but I couldnt pass up the price. $350 for the front shocks with the Global West perches/Afcoil springs, $100 for the rear shocks. Try and tell me thats not too good of a deal to pass up, especially for custom valved Koni DA's, with a shock dyno chart.
TECH Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
From: Boston, MA
great deal...
You could just lower the front bump (compression) setting down to 0 or 1 up from soft, no. That would help the ride out alot. Especially if those DA's are valved stiffer in both rebound and compression. But maybe they are re-valved softer on compression and firmer on rebound. Then that would make your settings understandable.
You could just lower the front bump (compression) setting down to 0 or 1 up from soft, no. That would help the ride out alot. Especially if those DA's are valved stiffer in both rebound and compression. But maybe they are re-valved softer on compression and firmer on rebound. Then that would make your settings understandable.
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,055
Likes: 1
From: Hartsdale, NY
So for reducing body roll, using super stiff springs has the same effect as swapping to oversized sways?
What about going over bumps with super stiff springs; that must be jar your fillings; right?
What about going over bumps with super stiff springs; that must be jar your fillings; right?
Yes springs aid the sway bars in roll control, but the reason softer springs and larger sways are used in conjunction with each other over stiffer springs is that springs change ride, predictability, nose dive and weight transfer in braking and accelerating. Sway bars control only body roll in corners, so you can have a car that offers good weight transfer and ride with softer springs, but still has great turn in and roll control with larger sway bars... thats how i understand it.
Yes springs aid the sway bars in roll control, but the reason softer springs and larger sways are used in conjunction with each other over stiffer springs is that springs change ride, predictability, nose dive and weight transfer in braking and accelerating. Sway bars control only body roll in corners, so you can have a car that offers good weight transfer and ride with softer springs, but still has great turn in and roll control with larger sway bars... thats how i understand it.
You are correct though with your understanding. In most cases it would be better to control cornering roll forces with bigger bars and softer springs, especially for daily driving comfort. Im nuts though and thinking about going with a much stiffer front bar.
It's a bit simplistic to say that bigger bars = softer springs. That can be the case, but some folks like stiff everything. I'm kind of in the middle. I run a big bar in front, moderate rear bar and moderate springs all around. I can and will change this depending on situations or other parts maybe already installed on a car if the owner wants to make what he has work as best he can.
Both springs and bars add wheel rate. Springs always add it, bars don't. And many folks are under the mis-understanding that a small change in rate makes massive changes in pitch and roll when it really doesn't. When you are testing a race car, the rule is you make spring rate changes you make them in increments of at least 10% of rate because it's very hard to feel anything less. Also when you see one of these cars "diving" the majority of the movement is the rising, not the nose dropping, so big front springs don't do as much as you think to stop that.
There is no magic formula, there are differences. We all have preferences on how we do work. Some are 100% locked in, some aren't. I'm pretty set on my stuff, but will vary to different degrees with situations, realizing they are not all the same (but most are similar).
Both springs and bars add wheel rate. Springs always add it, bars don't. And many folks are under the mis-understanding that a small change in rate makes massive changes in pitch and roll when it really doesn't. When you are testing a race car, the rule is you make spring rate changes you make them in increments of at least 10% of rate because it's very hard to feel anything less. Also when you see one of these cars "diving" the majority of the movement is the rising, not the nose dropping, so big front springs don't do as much as you think to stop that.
There is no magic formula, there are differences. We all have preferences on how we do work. Some are 100% locked in, some aren't. I'm pretty set on my stuff, but will vary to different degrees with situations, realizing they are not all the same (but most are similar).
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
It's a bit simplistic to say that bigger bars = softer springs. That can be the case, but some folks like stiff everything. I'm kind of in the middle. I run a big bar in front, moderate rear bar and moderate springs all around. I can and will change this depending on situations or other parts maybe already installed on a car if the owner wants to make what he has work as best he can.
Both springs and bars add wheel rate. Springs always add it, bars don't. And many folks are under the mis-understanding that a small change in rate makes massive changes in pitch and roll when it really doesn't. When you are testing a race car, the rule is you make spring rate changes you make them in increments of at least 10% of rate because it's very hard to feel anything less. Also when you see one of these cars "diving" the majority of the movement is the rising, not the nose dropping, so big front springs don't do as much as you think to stop that.
There is no magic formula, there are differences. We all have preferences on how we do work. Some are 100% locked in, some aren't. I'm pretty set on my stuff, but will vary to different degrees with situations, realizing they are not all the same (but most are similar).
Both springs and bars add wheel rate. Springs always add it, bars don't. And many folks are under the mis-understanding that a small change in rate makes massive changes in pitch and roll when it really doesn't. When you are testing a race car, the rule is you make spring rate changes you make them in increments of at least 10% of rate because it's very hard to feel anything less. Also when you see one of these cars "diving" the majority of the movement is the rising, not the nose dropping, so big front springs don't do as much as you think to stop that.
There is no magic formula, there are differences. We all have preferences on how we do work. Some are 100% locked in, some aren't. I'm pretty set on my stuff, but will vary to different degrees with situations, realizing they are not all the same (but most are similar).
