Pulling to the right, why. Spec sheet posted
05-07-2008, 01:51 PM
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Pulling to the right, why. Spec sheet posted Heres the problem. My 2001 Z28 had too much positive camber on the left front. It drove great, but I just moved the lower control arm bolt adjustment out equally to bring it straight up and down (0 camber), readjusted the toe.
Then it pulled to the right.
Now read this carefully...I took it to a shop (chain store) to get the alignment done $82 later I drove off and it was the same thing. I stopped at a different location (same chain store) and told them the car never had an alignment.
Now look at the before and after. The before was AFTER I had it at their other store.
Whatever, they supposedly aligned it right but it still pulls slightly to the right.
I'm guessing it's the caster difference between the two.
Is that a correct assumption?
Then it pulled to the right.
Now read this carefully...I took it to a shop (chain store) to get the alignment done $82 later I drove off and it was the same thing. I stopped at a different location (same chain store) and told them the car never had an alignment.
Now look at the before and after. The before was AFTER I had it at their other store.
Whatever, they supposedly aligned it right but it still pulls slightly to the right.
I'm guessing it's the caster difference between the two.
Is that a correct assumption?
Last edited by 9000th01ss; 01-06-2009 at 09:56 AM.
05-07-2008, 05:24 PM
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So with my current settings it should not pull if I drive on the wrong side of the road?
Meaning the crown will be on the opposite side. It looks like they have more caster on the wrong side, right?
Meaning the crown will be on the opposite side. It looks like they have more caster on the wrong side, right?
05-07-2008, 08:43 PM
#4
Take it back... Actually a car will pull to...
Camber=the more positive
Caster=the least positive
You have .6 degree positive camber to the right. This can cause a pull especially with road crown. The caster is bias(pull wise) toward the left but not enough to compensate for the camber. Being a tech myself I wouldn't have shipped that car that way. These cars can be a little difficult to align without the adjuster tool so I'm guessing they saw mostly green specs and shipped it. Ideally you want 4.8 degrees caster both sides with 0 degrees cross caster and .4 positive camber both sides. I sometimes have to bump the camber a hair on the left and drop a hair on the right for "straightness of driving" or do the opposite with the caster. Take it back to one of the shops. Longwinded, hope it helps.
Camber=the more positive
Caster=the least positive
You have .6 degree positive camber to the right. This can cause a pull especially with road crown. The caster is bias(pull wise) toward the left but not enough to compensate for the camber. Being a tech myself I wouldn't have shipped that car that way. These cars can be a little difficult to align without the adjuster tool so I'm guessing they saw mostly green specs and shipped it. Ideally you want 4.8 degrees caster both sides with 0 degrees cross caster and .4 positive camber both sides. I sometimes have to bump the camber a hair on the left and drop a hair on the right for "straightness of driving" or do the opposite with the caster. Take it back to one of the shops. Longwinded, hope it helps.
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05-08-2008, 11:54 AM
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Well I went to a different store, same chain.
This guy tells me that ALL cars are going to lead to the right because of the crown in the road.
I told him I have another car exactly like that one, my SS, and a 3500 truck and neither one leads to the right.
In fact this car didn't lead to the right until I adjusted the positive camber out of the left side.
Since I messed with it and two alignments later it still pulls or leads to the right.
He ended by saying I'm worried about a .4 caster difference, he can correct that but it's going to be a four hour wait, he says I'm still not going to be satisfied because ALL cars even new ones off the lot lead to the right, so I'd be better off going to the original store and getting my money back. So I did.
Lets just say I do not look like a 16 year old kid right now, it should be obvious I've driven several vehicles at this point. But what can you do?
I take that refund as a cop out because they know their incompetent techs are never going to be able to get it right.
This guy tells me that ALL cars are going to lead to the right because of the crown in the road.
I told him I have another car exactly like that one, my SS, and a 3500 truck and neither one leads to the right.
In fact this car didn't lead to the right until I adjusted the positive camber out of the left side.
Since I messed with it and two alignments later it still pulls or leads to the right.
He ended by saying I'm worried about a .4 caster difference, he can correct that but it's going to be a four hour wait, he says I'm still not going to be satisfied because ALL cars even new ones off the lot lead to the right, so I'd be better off going to the original store and getting my money back. So I did.
Lets just say I do not look like a 16 year old kid right now, it should be obvious I've driven several vehicles at this point. But what can you do?
I take that refund as a cop out because they know their incompetent techs are never going to be able to get it right.
05-08-2008, 12:06 PM
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yes take your money back, at least they are offering it. go somewhere else where someone that knows what they are doing can do it.
every spec on your sheet is still fucted up
you want the chamber to be -1.0 or maybe a little higher (-1.0- -1.4) on both sides and it should be even on both sides.
the caster is not terrible, and will make the car pull to the left with current specs if everything else was properly done.
if your car would track straight with an even on both sides caster though, I would get that adjusted as well
and the toe is out of whack as well on the driver's side
go somewhere else, they did a terrible job, but it was very screwed up
every spec on your sheet is still fucted up
you want the chamber to be -1.0 or maybe a little higher (-1.0- -1.4) on both sides and it should be even on both sides.
the caster is not terrible, and will make the car pull to the left with current specs if everything else was properly done.
if your car would track straight with an even on both sides caster though, I would get that adjusted as well
and the toe is out of whack as well on the driver's side
go somewhere else, they did a terrible job, but it was very screwed up
05-08-2008, 11:52 PM
#11
Launching!
The toe being out of whack will ABSOLUTELY make the car not track straight.
One tire pushing or pulling the front of the car more than the other..... How in the world do you figure it wouldn't?
Caster and camber can both have some effect, no question. However, the toe will be much more apparent to the driver than the other two being uneven assuming, of course, that something really crazy isn't going on with those.
My car purposely has significantly more camber and caster on the right (MUCH more of a side to side difference than the car above) but tracks straight down the road despite having 3/16" of toe out. Why? Because I have the toe out matched side to side. I know it is because I did it myself. In fact I do my own alignments on both cars and the truck.
You're telling me that when you get a car on the rack that's been reported to be pulling to one side, you first go after the camber / caster and not the toe? Somehow I doubt that. If he could just crawl under the car and turn that right front tie rod in about 1/2 a flat (approx 0.020" of wheel movement), I bet the car would drive just fine.
*NOTE* I'm not suggesting he do that because he doesn't strike me as being comfortable with it.
*shrug* Just sharing my own experience......
One tire pushing or pulling the front of the car more than the other..... How in the world do you figure it wouldn't?
Caster and camber can both have some effect, no question. However, the toe will be much more apparent to the driver than the other two being uneven assuming, of course, that something really crazy isn't going on with those.
My car purposely has significantly more camber and caster on the right (MUCH more of a side to side difference than the car above) but tracks straight down the road despite having 3/16" of toe out. Why? Because I have the toe out matched side to side. I know it is because I did it myself. In fact I do my own alignments on both cars and the truck.
You're telling me that when you get a car on the rack that's been reported to be pulling to one side, you first go after the camber / caster and not the toe? Somehow I doubt that. If he could just crawl under the car and turn that right front tie rod in about 1/2 a flat (approx 0.020" of wheel movement), I bet the car would drive just fine.
*NOTE* I'm not suggesting he do that because he doesn't strike me as being comfortable with it.
*shrug* Just sharing my own experience......
Last edited by Ironhead; 05-09-2008 at 12:13 AM.
05-09-2008, 07:39 AM
#13
I will say that toe would have to be horribly out to cause a pull but as a rule toe will not cause a pull it will make a pull feel worse. Not tracking straight is not a pull. Adjusting only toe on a car that veers left or right will not correct the underlying problem. Just because a steering wheel is straight doesn't mean it's correct. And yes I do look at camber and caster first as these are the first adjustments made in any alignment. Looking at his spec sheet, I would start over because just playing with toe may slightly mask the problem but a bandage isn't a cure.
Last edited by quikz; 05-09-2008 at 07:47 AM. Reason: spelling
05-09-2008, 08:54 AM
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The toe being out of whack will ABSOLUTELY make the car not track straight.
One tire pushing or pulling the front of the car more than the other..... How in the world do you figure it wouldn't?
Caster and camber can both have some effect, no question. However, the toe will be much more apparent to the driver than the other two being uneven assuming, of course, that something really crazy isn't going on with those.
My car purposely has significantly more camber and caster on the right (MUCH more of a side to side difference than the car above) but tracks straight down the road despite having 3/16" of toe out. Why? Because I have the toe out matched side to side. I know it is because I did it myself. In fact I do my own alignments on both cars and the truck.
You're telling me that when you get a car on the rack that's been reported to be pulling to one side, you first go after the camber / caster and not the toe? Somehow I doubt that. If he could just crawl under the car and turn that right front tie rod in about 1/2 a flat (approx 0.020" of wheel movement), I bet the car would drive just fine.
*NOTE* I'm not suggesting he do that because he doesn't strike me as being comfortable with it.
*shrug* Just sharing my own experience......
One tire pushing or pulling the front of the car more than the other..... How in the world do you figure it wouldn't?
Caster and camber can both have some effect, no question. However, the toe will be much more apparent to the driver than the other two being uneven assuming, of course, that something really crazy isn't going on with those.
My car purposely has significantly more camber and caster on the right (MUCH more of a side to side difference than the car above) but tracks straight down the road despite having 3/16" of toe out. Why? Because I have the toe out matched side to side. I know it is because I did it myself. In fact I do my own alignments on both cars and the truck.
You're telling me that when you get a car on the rack that's been reported to be pulling to one side, you first go after the camber / caster and not the toe? Somehow I doubt that. If he could just crawl under the car and turn that right front tie rod in about 1/2 a flat (approx 0.020" of wheel movement), I bet the car would drive just fine.
*NOTE* I'm not suggesting he do that because he doesn't strike me as being comfortable with it.
*shrug* Just sharing my own experience......
As for the toe arguement going on here, the toe on the car in the spec sheet is right at zero when measured with a tape measure.
One thing I noticed about this car is the toe can be set at 0 but the tie rods uneven, it will not turn as sharp one way than the other. If this is the case their print out might not read the correct caster because the tie rod on that side is not letting it fully turn.
If I were to align this car I'd take the tie rods off the knuckles and set the camber and caster, then get the steering wheel straight, front tires at 0 to 3/16" in and adjust the tie rods evenly to drop the ends in the holes, put the nuts on and be done.
05-09-2008, 03:01 PM
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Come to think of it, how do they come up with different toe readings side to side if the steering wheel is straight and it has zero toe.
In other words I checked the toe by measuring the tire tread on the front side and on the backside and it's exactly the same.
In other words I checked the toe by measuring the tire tread on the front side and on the backside and it's exactly the same.
05-09-2008, 03:15 PM
#16
Launching!
Checking the toe by measuring from tire tread to tire tread isn't going to be accurate.
You'll need to string the car or use toe plates. I do both.
Jackstands and string can take care of stringing it. Toe plates can be fabricated at home if you don't want to buy 'em. Long ago I bought a set of Longacres.
FWIW I've found that zero toe makes the car drive a little goofy. I've had better results on my cars by being in or out, not zero. Zero toe makes it feel "vague" and "drifty".
YMMV as always.
You'll need to string the car or use toe plates. I do both.
Jackstands and string can take care of stringing it. Toe plates can be fabricated at home if you don't want to buy 'em. Long ago I bought a set of Longacres.
FWIW I've found that zero toe makes the car drive a little goofy. I've had better results on my cars by being in or out, not zero. Zero toe makes it feel "vague" and "drifty".
YMMV as always.
05-09-2008, 04:58 PM
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Vague and drifty is a good description. But it's not that bad.
I've been hearing an ad on the radio, new shop about an hour away that claims to have the straightest alignment in the state. Maybe I'll give them a try.
I've been hearing an ad on the radio, new shop about an hour away that claims to have the straightest alignment in the state. Maybe I'll give them a try.
