Conceal Carry Weapon
 

Hey guys, I will be taking the CHL class this summer and have already begun my gun search:usa:

I absolutely do not want to start a caliber debate, first of all. I was not really looking for a .380, but when I held the Sig Saeur p238 it felt awesome! I have medium size hands I would say, and I can get my entire hand (including pinky) around that thing and it feels goood;). The slide is also super smooth, and the best part is that it will be MUCH easier to conceal than any of the other guns I have looked at. Yes, I could get a pocket 9mm in a similar size, but I would have to go down in magazine capacity (the p238 hold 6+1 & I believe there are magazines out there to hold 7+1). I have not shot the gun yet, but I have watched reviews on youtube and they all tend to agree with the salesman at academy who said it was very accurate.

Does anyone out there own this gun personally, or have a suggestion for a similar ccw? I will also be buying a .40 eventually but want to buy the gun that I will be able to carry most often first.

I think there is a caliber cut off (don't know for sure). You may wanna check and make sure that if you qualify with a smaller caliber, you can carry a larger caliber concealed.

Springfield Armory XDS

True that! I can always qualify with my dad or brother's .40. Good point though/Thanks

That gun is freakin sweet! I think it may be pretty violent to have such a light .40 though. I know that all the reviews say that it is "surprisingly maneagable" but I am a lot less experienced than them. Also, it would be more expensive to shoot. So that may be another gun I buy in the future, but not now. Thanks for the reply

I recently did the same search. If your aim is decent, I would recommend the Springfield XDS. It's a single stack (6+1) but it's a very compact and lightweight .45 The recoil is also very managable.

Well hell that's 2 for the XDS. And it is what I was originally looking at. I'll have to see if I can find size specs on it and compare them to the p238 since I haven't held the XDS. I tend to wear clothes that are tapered so conceal options are limited unless I buy new clothes too. lol. My dad has the Springfield XD in a .40 and I really like it. It's double stack though

It's VERY concealable. I also have a Glock 22 .40, and I'd say the xds has less kick than that.

Beretta PX4 Storm Sub-Compact .40 cal. XD's are very nice, but I like guns w/hammers.

You have one!? They aren't in any of the stores around here yet. I wish I could get my hands on an xds to shoot. Or even just to hold.

I wish. They still haven't released it to the general public.

Yea that's what I thought. Anyone know the release date? Also, has anyone shot one personally? Maybe a springfield rep or something..

I've SHOT one. It was very nice. I don't think they have an official release date yet. They are on backorder.

Walther PPS is another good gun. Its single stack and comes in 9mm or .40

^ Lucky dog. lol, I just really want to shoot one before I buy it.. I guess I could borrow a .40 from my brother untlin the xds comes out then I could try it.

Yea I've heard good things bout that one too

No problem. I want one myself but last I heard they were on back order.

There's no caliber cut-off. It has to with your qualifying gun being a revolver or a semi-auto. If you qualify with a revolver, then that's all you can carry. But, if you qualify with a semi-auto, then you can carry both.

There's nothing wrong with carrying a P238 or a Mustang Pocketlite (that's what I carry 99% of the time). Both shoot great and group surprisingly well out to 15yds.

[QUOTE=99SS'Vert;16314202]There's no caliber cut-off. It has to with your qualifying gun being a revolver or a semi-auto. If you qualify with a revolver, then that's all you can carry. But, if you qualify with a semi-auto, then you can carry both.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/Interne...rms/CHL-16.pdf

GC §411.188. HANDGUN PROFICIENCY REQUIREMENT. (a) The director by rule shall establish minimum standards for handgun proficiency and shall develop a course to teach handgun proficiency and examinations to measure handgun proficiency. The course to teach handgun proficiency must contain training sessions divided into two parts. One part of the course must be classroom instruction and the other part must be range instruction and an actual demonstration by the applicant of the applicant's ability to safely and proficiently use the applicable category of handgun. An applicant must be able to demonstrate, at a minimum, the degree of proficiency that is required to effectively operate a handgun of .32 caliber or above. The department shall distribute the standards, course requirements, and examinations on request to any qualified handgun instructor.


I like the Glock 19 3rd Gen.

Glock 27... the end :guns:

There are so many variables to consider....but IMO, this is most important.....get a gun that you will actually carry. If that means smaller caliber, capacity, and less stopping "power".....its still better than getting a gun you wont carry.
that being said, I love XD's but they aren't the easiest to conceal. Glocks aren't either cause they are almost as blocky.

Look at all types of concealed carry holsters before buying your gun. A good holster will allow you to carry a bigger,better handgun with comfort.

I got a 380, one of the smallest and lightest on market. Horrible to shoot, but better than no gun. I use a hide it holster to easily conceal large handguns

i have and carry a Smith & Wesson Bodyguard 380. EXCELENT concealment gun as it is VERY small and light. Surprisinly accurate out to ~15 yards.

The earlier guns had issuses what the take down leaver poping out and causing the slide to fall off the gun. That issue has been resolved in the later guns.

It is hammerless, will fire without the mag in, and, is the best part about the gun,if by chance you have a FTF, all you have to do is keep pulling the trigger until it fires instead on having to cock the hammer back each time it FTFs.

Another good option if you want a larger cal. is the American Tactial Imports FX 45 Titan (google it) It is a smaller version (copy) of the tried and true Colt 1911. This gun is Made in the Phillipiness (which have perfected the 1911 copy) and is a VERy affordable 1911 copy, coming in at around $400 for a blued version and $600 for S.S.

I used to have the Sig 238 and while it was a decent gun, it was very painful to shoot, and had alot of issues with feeding, ejecting, and FTFs.

I just did mine in Jan and you need bigger than a .22 which ****s over the guys with 5.7mm guns like the 57. I think they're trying to change this.

The Kimber Solo is the handgun of the yr, in the NRA American Rifleman mag, April issue. It's available w/ the CT laser grips, too.
Not cheap, but not out of reason, either.

The Kimber Solo is the handgun of the yr, in the NRA American Rifleman mag, April issue. It's available w/ the CT laser grips, too.
Not cheap, but not out of reason, either.

I carry a p238. Mine is a great shooter. Much smoother than the other pocket .380's I've shot with real sights and a SA trigger. They don't function well when dirty though. The only time I have had any feed/eject issues were after 3 boxes of cheap ammo were shot through it. And yes, Sig does have the +1 magazines now. The only carry issue I've had is on a few occasions the mag release has been depressed while in my back pocket. I carry it in back or cargo pockets or IWB. I prefer the LCP for front pocket carry. Just find a range that rents the pistols you're interested in and have at it!

I also carry a XD40sc. It is actually easily concealed with a good IWB holster canted foreward, gun belt and the short magazine. I also have a P239. They're also single stack if thats what you're leaning towards.

My advice for qualifying is to use a full sized pistol. Less fatigue from felt recoil and better accuracy.

For Carry Ruger SP101 is the way to go...

Take a look at the Taurus 738 TCP.

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/.../taurus-pt.jpg

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Tauru...8/DSC09562.JPG

Hands down the new S & W Shield in 9mm, just came out last month...:google: I currently carry the Glock .23 40cal, but picking up the S & W Shield.


B

This is wrong. You need a .32 or larger to perform the class.


This is wrong. .32 or larger. Reason being they don't want little old ladies qualifying with a little .22, then carrying a .50 or something. You need to prove you can handle a reasonable defensive weapon, which a .22 is not.

Good to know. I used a LCP .380 AUTO I never fired until qualifying. It's a very cheap gun, goes bang on every pull, and fits in a pocket easily.

I have a TCP and the magazine release is really sensitive, it's pretty common for the mag to release when its inside my pocket. Maybe I just have a bad piece, but its something to look for if you are interested in the TCP.

I ditched the TCP for a Taurus slim 9mm
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...01/taurus1.gif

the Slim 9mm with a kangaroo carry holster is the best combo I've ever carried. Their advertising is nice too.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...irmarshal2.jpg

^now that's a good looking holster. Lol, are there any sporting goods stores that sell these holsters? I would like to try one on and it seems like academy and bass pro don't carry many concealed carry holsters like these

I have a Glock 26 with mag extension and crimson trace grips on it. I have an IWB holster, an ankle holster, and even a desantis front pocket holster for it. I mostly use the pocket holster, cant tell its there unless you are trying to wear some really tight pants or shorts that have really shallow pockets. Love it!

Rugar lcp here, not fun to shoot but Its small and hides perfect!

you can NEVER go wrong with a Sig, Ive shot a few different Sigs my favorite being the 226 but I bought a 2340 .40 cal (polymer lower) with the metal slide. essentially the same thing as the others but with the polymer lower since they were trying to compete with the Glock for LEO contracts. Shoots just as accurate but easier to maintain and slightly lighter.

All have have say is go Sig and you wont be disappointed. Accurate, perfectly weighted, and reliable!

Oops :emb:... I did not know that. Thank you sir.

I carry the LCP 380 also and love it for size and ease of carry.

The Ruger ACP .380 is a good choice. If u get the right ammo, .380 is a good choice.

I'm partial to sigs and Springfields. I cc my p229 and xdm 4.5 and xd sc. When I work in New Mexico I open carry(it's legal here and awkward the first time)

2 points for New Mexico

Dont care what gun you carry. But if you dont ever plan to carry it walking down the street, dont get a CHL. You dont need one to have it in your car.

^ well said. Attackers don't make appointments.

I disagree. CHL card carriers have lower arrest rates than off-duty cops. When you get pulled over and hand the police your CHL, s/he knows:

-you have no felony record
-never had a DWI, BWI, or drug possession charges
-your fingerprints are in the FBI database
-you have no pending misdemeanors
-you are generally a good person of sound mind

granted, they should know most of this after pulling up your driving record when they go back to the car, but they'll walk back to their car with much less to worry about.

Bottom line: CHL = respect from police.

Really so having a CHL=Respect from Police.....That's a generalization sir I doubt it makes them respect you and (Correction)you can have a DWI and have a CHL....

Well, having a CHL definitely doesn't hurt with most law enforcement I'm sure. The key to having a smooth relationship with police is to get them to identify with you, i.e. a sticker on the back glass from a university the officer graduated from. I would say an officer is more likely to identify with a CHL holder. Who know though. That's not the reason I'm getting the license.

LEO's give out high fives for everyone they pull over with CHL

its a standard procedure.

Can you cite your source on this? I'm not trying to sound like I don't believe you, I would just like to be able to back it up if I repeat that.

" In the mid-90s, a comparison of statistics found that Florida concealed handgun license holders were three times LESS likely to be arrested than were New York City police officers[iv]. There is absolutely no evidence that concealed carry leads to an increase in assaults or other violent crimes in the places where it is allowed."

I found this here: http://www.campuscarry.com/opponents...-review-panel/

Interesting..

I own 3 XDms ... the comp version of the 45, a 4.5" in 9 and the 3.8 version in 9.
I also own a springer 1911 A1.

So I am a HUGE Springfield nutswinger.

I too was holding out for an XDs. Damn ... that is a nice combination of caliber, capacity and package.

But the delays ... MONTHS after it was announced ... worries the crap out of me. I don't want to throw down $500 and have a carry weapon ... you know one that I depend on ... that isn't reliable.

Because the reasons for the delay have been so secretive, I tend to be pessimistic and think there is a major design flaw.

At any rate, I don't want that doubt floating around in my head.

So I found a Shield in 9 and haven't looked back. I let the first round of beta testers help Springfield work out the kinks.

In the meantime, I have 400 rounds through the Sheild and it is an amazing weapon.

I wrote a quick range report on another forum ... here it is ...

And the token photo ...

http://lawmotorsports.net/mw/S&W_Shield.jpg

You can have drug charges and get a chl also. You just can't have any recently and the cant be felonies. A little class B possession charge 10 years ago won't hurt you.

I've got my chl and..... Well I was young once.

My vote goes to the ruger Sr9c. I've had it for a while an put about 1500 rounds threw in and it performed flawlessly. Although I don't have a chl, I keep in the car. An I would not see any issues for a carry gun.

Bottom line, you are obligated to disclose you have a CHL to police by law. 2nd bottom line; I have made MULTIPLE friends that either did or didnt disclose this fact and had an incident because of it. When a cop knows you have a weapon the game changes. They are trained to assume you do, but when they KNOW you do, its different. Generally not for the better. You have a single drink when out to dinner? Better now have a CHL, because you just drew a big fucking red X on your back. If you are not going to carry the side arm on the open street, do not get a CHL. It only puts you "on the grid". The laws in our state protect concealed carry in your vehicle. Beyond that, good luck to you. I am educated and informed on the matter.

I carry a S&W m&p .40c in a crossbreed iwb holster. It's my favorite system to carry, I also carry my Ruger SR-1911 when i can wear a jacket. The 1911 is slim and I can drive tacks with it, but its super heavy.

I would recomend something slim and compact like the m&p shield in 9mm. I personally like .40 &.45 cal better but 9mm is chapper, holds more rounds, and with the modern defensive ammo it should stop any threat. Sure a .380 can prob get the job done but, ammo is harder to find and expensive so practicing will be expensive. Just my .02

.380 is 9mm short. It will do fine. Modern defensive rounds penetrate just fine.
.380 hasn't been hard to find since 08. I can find .380 all day, any day. Rounds don't cost any more than .40 cal at the most and are usually in between 9mm and .40. Defensive rounds are about $20 for 20. Pretty normal. I've bought FMJ and hollow points for the range for $13-16 for a box (50 rounds). Buying ammo is like anything, shop around.

Some outdated info here. As of Sept 1, 2009 the penalty was removed for not presenting a concealed handgun license to a peace officer if the officer asks to see identification, and if the person being questioned has a hidden weapon. Until then the state could suspend a violator’s concealed handgun license for a year.

Is it a good idea to go ahead and let them know? YES! Are you obligated to? No. Can the officer be an ass and give you all sorts of crap for not letting them know in the beginning? Yes. So IMO, might as well let them know even if you don't have to. Its not like its painful or something.

Well I guess it depends where you live. Around here .380 is more expensive and not as easy to find like 9mm is. You can get 9mm fmj around here for $10per 50 and 380 is about $18. And I have to disagree with .380 being as good as 9mm, .380 Is shorter and has less powe/ lower ballistics than 9mm. So if I can buy .40 and .380 for the same price, then I'd choose .40. Just my opinion.

Now dont get me wrong, I'm not knocking .380, I'm sure most of y'all will agree we me when i say "I wouldn't wanna get shot with a .22". lol.

Amo costs should only concern people who go and fire their weapons weekly and fire them a lot.

If you are concerned about spending $8 more on a pack of 50, maybe you shouldn't be buying a $400-$700 pistol.

I never said .380 and 9mm were the same. I just said the .380 will do the job.
I have .40 and .45 also. While they have more power .380 is great for the tiny pistols that easily fit in pockets. I've found I carry my .380's more often in hot weather for ease of concealment. Plus the frigging console of the V isn't large enough for my XD40sc to fit in which aggravates me to no end.


Or start reloading instead of buying a second pistol.

To each it's own. I just figured if you're gonna carry a pistol then you need to practice. Which if you practice you will use a lot of ammo. If you're ballin' outta controll and can afford to spend that kind of money on .380 then go for it. I'm just saying 9mm is cheaper and with the new 9mm pocket pistols, its sonething worth looking into.

Yeah. I agree with you. I have a 9mm (Beretta PX4 Storm Subcompact). I'm also thinking about getting a .380. Probably the Taurus.

Why the CHL hate in here? I've been in a couple of situations where im about 90% sure I got a little extra courtesy from law enforcement. A few of my buddies have had similar experiences.

And its all fine and good that you can carry in your vehicle without a CHL, but attackers don't always wait for you to get back to, and inside your vehicle before they do their thing.

And yeah, there is zero tolerance for someone with a CHL and alcohol. And that's a good thing. If you're not an idiot, you are responsible enough to not bring a firearm around if you are going to be drinking. :nod:

[QUOTE=Greed4Speed;1632210

Or start reloading instead of buying a second pistol.[/QUOTE]

Ive actually considered reloading. I do a little IPSC shooting and between practicing and doing matches, ammo goes by so fast. I shoot a XD tactical .45 and the only reason i can afford it is because I have a friend that reloads for me. I take him brass and he loads me 300-500 rounds at a time for .20 cents a round.

But I'm a firm believer that if you take on the resposibily to CCW you must practice a lot. The last thing you want to do is kill some innocent person because you suck at shotting your carry gun.

My wife carries a S&W bodyguard .380 everyday. Thats the pistol she wanted because it was the easiest to carry and shoot for her. But I made her practice a lot at first, and now at least once a month. With a caliber that small she needs to worry about shot placement and not just abiut squeezing the trigger.

.45 Spring XD here no problems with it and carry everywhere I go

Because the first sentence is not true, I'm inclined to believe the second is not as well.

I'm gonna quote the book on this one. Page 70 of the "Texas Concealed Handgun Laws" states:

Q: Can I carry a handgun if I am drinking alcohol?

A: "Carrying" while drinking is not prohibited, but it is a criminal offense to carry while intoxicated.


That means be responsible for your actions, but you already are responsible, or they wouldn't have given you a CHL.

Lots of misinformation here. People need to take the class, get educated, and read the laws.

I persoally would not drink and carry. My chl instructor told us that its not illegal to drink and carry but you can't be intoxicated while carrying. He also said it all depends on the cop if they wanna be a dick, because theres nothing that states what is considered intoxicated. Just like .08 Is the limit before getting a DWI, some people could be drunk and blow less than the limit. All I know is that I'm not willing to find out the hard way. LOL!

This is the correct mindset. Know the rules, do what you feel is responsible, don't find out the hard way. I have no issue walking into a non-51% sign-having restaurant and having a drink with dinner, or even a drink with friends, while carrying. But I know I'm responsible and will man up to face the consequences of my actions if something goes wrong.

Yep. If you are involved in a shooting and it becomes known you had a drink it will get very ugly. You will probably get reamed in civil court also.

I would tell the cop you have a license just because when she/he runs your license it will show. That cop will wonder why you didn't say anything. Some will care, others won't but why take the chance.

Regardless of your BAC or CHL status, expect to have a "civil courtroom experience" if you use your weapon to defend you and yours.

Shooting another person, whether justified or not, will have your life turned inside out looking for a perponderance of evidence that you are incompetent to own a firearm.

It could be anything from doing a bad job of cleaning the gun, lack of training, lack of experience, were in a bad mood ... anything that the opposing lawyer can sink their claws into they will.

Civil is way different than criminal.

A dude on meth can be busting down your door, threatening your infant daughter with a 10 gutting knife and his family's lawyer will say he was there selling girl scout cookies for his paralyzed, cancer riddled daughter. If 7 believe him and 6 believe you, yer screwed.

Carrying is a HUGE responsibility and commitment.

Yes that is the case, but it is completely up to the cop whether he feels you are intoxicated or not. There is no .08 bac test that decides this one, its up to the cop. I have been told by LEO friends/ acquaintances that it will probably never end well for the person if they come across a CHL holder that is carrying when they've been drinking. Common sense tells me that is probably a common attitude. Probably easy for me to think because I don't drink anyway.

If a dude is busting down your door then your probably at home and not carrying. That's way different. And I believe there are 12 in a jury and not 13

Ive had this mind set since before I got my CHL. I'd rather go to jail for saving my wife or kids life from someone trying to hurt them, than living the rest of my life with out them knowing that I could have done something about it.

I hope that i never have to use deadly force against anyone. But like everyone says "its better to have one and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Not carrying ... true.

Civil lawsuit ... most likely

The judge makes 13 ... he has the power to throw the case out on merit alone.

Again ... civil suit not a criminal indictment.

In response to your 1st paragraph:

This is why, in the event of a shooting, you should protect yourself and not say or do a damn thing until you get to your lawyer. There are no circumstances which would change this advice for me. Accept no breath test, no blood test, no intoxication tests. Take the ride to jail, knowing you saved a life, and don't say anything. Without PC or warrant, they have no right to collect biological samples from you. Period.

In response to your 2nd:

This is why I would always recommend immediately showing the CHL to the police and let them know your carrying status, whether you are currently carrying or not. This will put the cop at ease and prevent them from taking an anxiety-ridden walk to/from your car. They'll never wonder if you're carrying if they've just disarmed you, and they won't wonder why you didn't tell them you're a CHL if you tell ASAP. After all, police have a right to disarm you during any interaction if they believe it will create a more secure environment for them to conduct business. Don't act like the guy that gets arrested, simple as that.

Does the TX castle law not protect you from a civil suit?

The castle law does now protect you from a civil suit. The person(should they survive) and their family can no longer sue you for what happens on your property. I want to say it includes your work place, but im not 100%

If the judge throws the case out then you most likely won't have a jury or used one anyway. And that would be for you not against you

I like my Glock 23 or the 21 is good as well. Both come in .40 or .45

Anyone care to post a source for this info? It would be good to know, because this is NOT what I learned in the CHL class.

Shoot anyone, anytime, for any reason: expect to be sued, no matter what the justification. This is what I learned.

Derrickman- anytime there is a killing in Texas, a grand jury is assembled to determine if the shooter should face charges.

When did you take your CHL? The law changed in 2010 I think?

Yea I hope this is true. Anyone have a citation? APA or MLA format please. Ha just messin. This thread really took off since I checked it earlier this morning. And it's cool we got off topic, I'm diggin the information! Since most of us don't know each others credentials though, it's best if you can post a link to a source.

Or he could NOT throw it out and then you'll have the jury of twelve.
Six of those folks (plus the judge initially) ... yer screwed.

Not sure what is unclear about that.


The castle law did change last year. A lot of talk about extending "Stand Your Ground" to you car.

I did not realize that civil immunity was a part of that ...

http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs...l/SB00378F.HTM

Good discussion.

I might be misunderstanding you cuzz I'll admit I'm not much on the judicial system but if it's 6 for you and 6 against you isn't that a hung jury? I don't think the judge gets a vote. I'm still not seeing the 13th person. The judge just does the sentencing if found guilty. But anyway we are getting off track. I don't claim to know how it works so if your positive then I believe you.

Yeah ... off track. I see what your POV ...

Mine was big picture ... facing 13 folks and if you only have 6 on your side ... judge initially and 6 more in the jury box.

sigs are great guns. For concealment i carry a glock 27. May want to look at the glocks, they have such a big market. Plus you can buy a conversion barrel to change it from 40 cal to 9mm, so you have the best of both worlds.

I had a G27 for many years before I got the XD. It was a good pistol. Felt recoil was worse with the G27 for me. I'm guessing the slide spring is stiffer in the XD. The Glock never felt really good in my hands, and I didn't try changing the spring before selling it. Anyway, you can get .357 sig and especially 9mm barrels for most .40 cal pistols. Thats the cool thing about .40.

Yep at home! Work / otherwise I would say no but I'm not a lawyer. I'd be very weary of pulling the trigger outside of the home unless the other person is clearly armed.

Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY [AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE]. A [It is an affirmative defense to a civil action for damages for personal injury or death that the] defendant who uses force or[, at the time the cause of action arose, was justified in using] deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9 [Section 9.32], Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s [against a person who at the time of the] use of force or deadly force, as applicable [was committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the defendant].

To coin a phrase: "Better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six"

This is a pretty good read from AR15.com. I don't agree with everything in it, but it's still insightful.

Part 1.

Lately in GD we have had two different board members find themselves looking down the barrel of a gun along with the GF of another ARFCOMMER in street robberies. Also Blitz308 got shot all to pieces last year.

While many say it is better to be lucky than good, no one is lucky every time. In this post I am going to attempt to provide some insight into street encounters. Other may have different viewpoints. I am not here to argue. I will say some of the comments I have seen posted in the threads about this sort of matter make me realize that while some ARFCOMMERS are clearly street veterans others are not. This is really for those who are not.


Background

First, my info. I worked in the street of one of America's most violent, dangerous cities for 15 years. I usually worked in the worst part of that city. I spent 15 years in patrol. I liked patrol. It was wild. Most of the time I worked in areas covered in ghetto. By that I mean large housing projects combined with run down slum housing. I have worked all shifts. Later I became an investigator including a robbery investigator. I have spent countless hours in interrogation rooms talking to hold up men. I know them. I am still an investigator but have quit playing the Robbery game because my family was starting to forget what I looked like.


The Enemy

Some may object to me calling hold up men "the enemy". You can call them whatever you like. I can assure you however they are as deadly an enemy as you will find anywhere but the battlefield. Even many soldiers probably lack the viciousness and utter disregard for life most hold up men possess.

No one wakes up in the morning one day and decides to become an armed robber. It is a gradual process that requires some experience and desensitizing. Before a man will pick up a gun and threaten to kill people who have done him no harm in order to get their usually meager possessions he has to get comfortable with some things.

He has to get used to seeing others as objects for him to exploit. He has to accept he may be killed while robbing. He has to accept the felony conviction for Robbery will haunt him all his life. He has to accept he may need to kill a completely innocent person to get away with his crime.

This is a process that starts with stealing candy at the corner store as a child. It progresses through bigger property crimes that may also involve violence. But one day G gets tired of selling his stolen property for nothing and decides it would be better to steal cash. Cut out all that tiresome sales stuff.


Keep in mind many petty thieves, auto burglars, residential and commercial burglars, paper thieves, and hustlers will get to that point and decide not to become armed robbers. Most will. It is a special group of outliers who decide threatening to kill people for a few dollars is the way to go.

Once a man starts armed robbing he has crossed a line most won't. Don't forget that when you are looking these bastards in the eye. Their decision to kill you is already made. Your life means nothing to him. Only his does. His sole motivation for not killing you is he doesn't want a murder case. He has already accepted he may pick one up though.

We hunt hold up men around the clock once they are identified. We send teams of fire breathing fence jumper/door kickers to find them. We will bring their mother to the office and convince her she is going to jail if we don't have Junior in our office in an hour. We have her call her son crying hysterically for him to turn himself in before she is arrested and held without bond as a material witness and her home seized for harboring him. Most of the time they won't. Fuck their own momma.

We will hit all Juniors friends and family's houses. We make it so no one will harbor him. He is so hot no one will let him in their house or even talk on the phone with him. We put money on him so he knows he is right to be betrayed and set up. We do this because of one thing.

That thing is they WILL kill someone if they keep robbing. That is why the city is willing to pay all the overtime. They don't want the murders. Think about that when you see Junior coming. The more robberies he does the closer he is to killing someone. Maybe you.

The guys who hit you on the street are gang members. They are Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Crips, Sureonos, many others. They do not see themselves as part of society. The street is all they know. They don't expect to live long or stay out of prison. They take a delight in your fear and suffering. They are warped individuals for the most part. They can be extremely dangerous.

One time we were locking up a hold up man and having a conversation about how they target their victims. I was saying they pick easy ones, another guy was saying they preferred easy ones but would take anybody.

I pointed out a uniform Officer there was an NFL size guy to that hold up man. Frankly the dude was a monster. I asked hold up man if he would rob him. He said "If I needed the money".



You

Chances are good you are a law abiding person except for maybe a little light weed smoking and maybe driving a little drunk every once in a while. Most of your life you have been taught to be nice and don't point guns at people. You are the exact opposite of your enemy who was taught just the opposite. Remember a lot of street life is like prison life. Who's the man is everything. Violence is the currency of the street.

You do not possess total disregard for the lives of others and do not want to kill anyone. You are concerned about the ramifications of shooting someone. Your family, your possessions and finances on the line. Your enemy has none of these concerns.

The laws that keep you from carrying your gun in bars or where ever mean nothing to your enemy. Your reluctance to shoot someone works to is advantage. His greater experience in street violence and the element of surprise is on his side.

Everyone should call their local FBI office and get a copy of Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. When it first came out it was ground breaking because it demonstrated to academics and other elites what street police knew all along. What did it show in interviews with cop killers? Nice guys finish dead. That's right. Most of those offenders commented that the Officer they killed set himself up to be killed because of reluctance to use force early in the encounter.

You can probably find it on line now. A lot of the victim Officers were a lot like a lot of other people, normal people. They were the opposite of their enemy.

Am I advocating becoming the enemy? No. I am saying the person who is robbing you has certain traits, attitudes, and background. That is all.


Dynamics of Encounters

Hold up men target victims on the street in an impulsive, opportunistic manner. They see someone and make a quick judgment call on whether to rob them. The time between when you are targeted and they are on you isn't long. Therefore, situational awareness is everything.

If you see G coming you are in good shape. If you don't you will be the victim who says "He came out of nowhere". No he didn't. There are many tricks to watching out but simply watching your back is the main thing. Watch your back. If you do it enough it becomes second nature and you won't even realize you are doing it.

Watching out is great but unfortunately many self defense courses stop there. You have parked you car in a well lit area, are aware of your surroundings, and looky here, here comes three guys across the parking lot and they start to kind of fan out.

When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.

Not long ago I was walking down the sidewalk in my town to go get my car. I was holding a folding chair in my gun hand. A car slow rolled past me with 4 heads in it. The guys in the back seat turned around as they went by looking at me. They went a little farther and U turned in the street.

Here they come back. As they started to slow down I looked at them with as contemptuous a look as I could muster and switched the chair to my left hand and flicked my shirt tail with my right hand. They just drove on mad dogging me.

In another case I was at a Christmas party and walked a girl to her car about 3 am. As we said our good-byes two guys were walking across the parking lot. One went behind a dumpster. I though he was peeing. He came out from behind the dumpster with a bottle.

As they got closer I stepped clear of that girl and unzipped my jacket at those two guys. When I did the guy threw down the bottle and they walked by cussing at me. If someone challenges you after you indicate you are armed say "I don't have a gun". Then they will know you do.

Here is an opposite story. A girl my brother knows was walking her dog when a guy approached her. She was polite. Mistake. He talked to her about the dog and said she had pretty hair and reached out and touched her hair. She did not slap his hand down or aggressively object. Mistake. He asked her if her dog bit and she said "No". At that time he slapped the shit out of her, drug her into a wooded area, and raped her.

The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.

Part II

When to draw

Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.



Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough motherfuckers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some motherfucker up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.


When to shoot

The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.

In deer hunting the experienced hunter takes the first good shot. May not be the perfect shot but it never is. Novices pass up a doable shot waiting for a better shot and then the deer is gone. Take the first good shot you are offered. Hopefully your alertness and hostile cues will prevent you ever having to fire. But once you see his weapon, shoot.

If a guy is coming at you with a gun in his hand shoot him. Shoot him right then. If you don't shoot first you may not shoot at all. I have known more than one person who was shot and received life changing injuries and also shot their attacker. Their only regret was not shooting sooner. Like Bill Jordan said "Nothing disturbs your enemy's aim like a slug delivered to the belt buckle area".


Guns and weapons

The handgun is the best weapon you can carry easily. I understand it is not always possible to have one due to laws, restrictions, whatever. I am not telling anyone to disregard laws about carrying weapons. Each person has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. I will say there is no substitute for a pistol when you need one.


Also if you can not be trusted with a pistol after a few drinks you can't be trusted with a pistol period. Booze is liquid bad judgment no doubt but it shouldn't make you into a damn moron. If you are a moron sober I don't know what to tell you.

Types of guns and ammo are always debated and probably always will be. I have seen people shot with all common calibers. My conclusion is if you hit someone between the collar bone and the tip of their ribs three times with anything, they are handled. Bigger is better but something is better than nothing. Get your front sight on his shirt and stay on him as long as he is standing with whatever gun you have.

Just have a gun with sure fire ammo. Draw early and fire immediately upon seeing his weapon. That course of action is about all you can do to up your odds of ending things favorably. Guns like the Ruger LC9, SIG 239, Glock 26/27 are examples of guns small enough to carry but with enough power and capacity to be useful. Do not be afraid to use a French Lebelle if that is the only gun you have. A gun is a gun. I like a Glock 19.


Training

We all want the best training. It can be expensive if you are having to pay for it and it can be hard to find the time to do it. There is a whole lot of BS out there. What can you do? First, pistol handling is not rocket surgery. If you will learn the basics and practice on your own you can be fine. Smooth draw, quick pairs, reload. If you know those things well you can be OK.

I know a young man who shot down two hold up men in 2010 at very close range while he and his GF were walking home from the store. He in Wyatt Earp like fashion ignored the fire coming from the gunman and killed him and wounded his accomplice. He nor his GF were injured. He like many was willing to give them the money until he picked up on nonverbal cues that because of his GF they were not quite satisfied with the money. He had a Glock 27.

He had only the most basic of training in gun handling but did do some draws and some dry fire a couple times a week and live fired maybe once a month. That basic skill combined with knowing what to do was enough. He shot at the first possible moment despite having let the guys get the drop on them. When the gunman turned his head because a car drove by that was the opening. A split second is a long time sometimes.

Work on some one hand shooting at close range. That is a skill not as popular as it once was and you want to use two hands when you can. Often you can find yourself doing something with your off hand though so be able to shoot with one hand out to 5 yards or so.


After

If it comes to pass you are forced to shoot someone do not feel bad. When the police come just tell them a guy threatened you with deadly force and you were forced to fire. I know there are bad police out there in some parts of the country who don't support self defense. I can't help you with that.

Do not talk to them until you have your attorney present. Now most young guys don't have an attorney on retainer and you may have no idea who to call. That is OK. You will figure it out but in the mean time don't talk about what happened other than to say you were forced to fire. You don't have to be an asshole just remember wait for your attorney.

Hopefully you will not give a statement for a couple days. Remember if you are put in jail that doesn't mean you are charged. Most places can hold you 48 or 72 hours on a felony before charging you or letting you go. Breath deep and get an attorney.

Expect to never get your gun back. You may get it back one day but maybe not. Do not buy expensive guns for the street. Buy yourself a nice sporting gun if you want a nice gun. Keep your street guns basic. The factory Model 10 Smith and the GI 45 have done a lot of work over the years and aren't fancy.


Worlds

We all live in different worlds. My world is filled with felons and gang members. Violence is common place. No one would be surprised if one of their friends called and said they shot a hold up man at a place of business or parking lot. In the past when I made calls the fact that the guy who is beating his GF is also on parole for 2nd degree murder flavored my world.

You may live in a smaller, less violent place where shootings seldom occur and it would be a rare to shoot a hold up man. I envy you and will be moving to a place like your town as soon as I can.

But be advised no matter where you are a hold man is going to be about the same. Whether he is a home boy or a guy who just exited the interstate into your town and needs some quick money. He is going to have a vicious streak and no regard for your life. Treat him like he treats you.

Giving them the money, doing what they say, all that may work but there is no guarantee. If you have never read Jeff Cooper's book The Principles of Personal Defense I suggest you order a copy immediately. It is a short book but summarizes a lot of important things.

Last year we had a trial here regarding an armed robbery that occurred. Three or four guys took a young couple from a parking garage near a college out by some railroad tracks where they raped, shot, and beat them. Their lives will never be the same.

The lesser thugs all turned on the trigger man at trial. The trigger man's statement in the paper was after all that had happened he felt like he was a victim. Think about that. That is the mindset you are up against.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/128...he_Basics.html

I've read that before. Good info in it.

Now that was a good read!! Man, I'm freakin pumped at work now. I feel like I should be practicing my quick draw!

All of that aside though, I think that info is good. I am fortunate to have an uncle who works/worked for the DEA and was the gun range master for LEOs in his tTxas city for a long time. I will certainly be doing some training with him.

Thanks Mr. 99ssvert. That is a fantastic read.

Yes good read!! Fiancé will have a gun soon!

Kinda off topic, does anyone know women using a .22 as defense? I want her to have the S&W .38 but not sure if she will like shooting it enough to get good practice in.

I just purchased a .38 special for my gf. She likes it alot, mainly due to the pink grips.

A .22 would be a last effort caliber. How about taking her to a range. Let her pick what feels good in her hands, then pay the rental fee and let her shoot and decide for herself?

My wife would be pissed if I got her a gun with pink on it. I give her crap because salespeople are always trying to push the pink guns on her.

Anyone have an opinion of the diamondback db9? I may be able to pick a "used" (only shot once) one up cheap. What would you guys pay for one, if you do like it.

From my past experience, I'd away from DB. There is probably very good reason the person is trying to unload that gun. I had their DB380. I read they had issues and fixed them, like many others do in the beginning. So I went ahead and bought one, cleaned it, and went test shooting. It literally had a fail to feed or eject every 2-3 rounds. I got VERY good at clearing it. I kept pushing it hoping it was just break in. After 150-200 round something in the trigger mechanism broke. The shop I bought it from sent it in for me (DB had previously paid for shipping for warranty but had stopped due to the amount of warranty work they had.) It took about 2 months to get back and and when it did the sight markings were all smudged. Luckily the shop stood behind what they sell and offered for me to put the $ on a different gun. So I have a Sig P238 now. Just skip DB and get a LC9 or the likes.